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IDs (XREFs in gedcom jargon) 10 years 7 months ago #1

  • potain
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Hello

I was reading this thread : 2472-webtrees-default-theme-issues and don't wish to start a new discussion about it here but I've found IDs to be very useful and invaluable and because they are unique (and that's the idea behind using a relational database) an easy way to reference, locate and find individual/family records. In fact I tell my users to make a note of them so that theycan quickly access their records by entering them in the search box. It's a real time saver.

As for displaying them on the page there seem to be ample room to add them to the details already listed there in the two columns - the second one particularly, ie :

Jacqueline Lee Bouvier

Name: Jacqueline Lee Bouvier | Sex Female
Married Name: Jacqueline Lee Kennedy | Birth 28 July 1929 38 23 -- Southampton, Suffolk Co, New York, USA
Maried Name: Jacqueline Lee Onassis | Death May 1994 ?(Age 64)? -- New York City, New York, USA
Individual ID: I155 | Famiily IDs : ..First marrige ; .. second marriage

I probably can make my own individual / family ID lists by constructing a couple of queries in PhpMyAdmin but can I make a suggestion?

Why not add a couple of tabs to the administration page because that's where they would probably be most useful with a couple of simple, minimal sortable tables with these columns and fields in them:

Individual IDs
ID | Global ID | Surname | First Name| whatever else of relevance - perhaps date of birth and country of birth

Family IDs
Family Id | Global ID | Husband | Wife | whatever else of relevance

Knowing your skills this would probably only take you a couple of minutes to implement but it would provide administrators with a powerful and efficient tool to quickly look up relevant records, a valuable reference.

It would save me a lot of work but more importantly be available within the programme itself , kept up to date by it rather than separate lists which one would need to update manually with every addition or change.

Jean
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IDs (XREFs in gedcom jargon) 10 years 7 months ago #2

  • kiwi
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Sorry Jean but:
  1. You are resurrecting the topic. It is CLOSED.
  2. IDs are for DB use only. They will NOT be displayed.
  3. The header area, in many instances, is already over-crowded (multiple names plus multiple marriages with sources, notes, long names, long addresses, sometimes displayed on small screen sizes etc etc etc
  4. We already have issues with fitting in the number of tabs available, so won't be adding more of them either
  5. If anyone wants this badly enough it will have to be their own work (which we are very happy to have), made available here in the add-ons area, maintained only by its creator.
Sorry to seem blunt, but this topic is getting very boring. Trust me, we exhausted this debate a long time ago among the developers, before we made the decision.
Nigel

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IDs (XREFs in gedcom jargon) 10 years 7 months ago #3

  • potain
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Hi Kiwi

I appreciate your courtesy, time and effort in replying and commenting to a closed subject. Being new to the program I wasn't aware of the deliberations that had gone on regarding this and I fully understand your exasperation at it being brought up once more. I won't raise it again. I am still catching up with things.

Simply to say though that while I am sure you would have had very good reasons for removing it from general view, in my opinion and it's only my opinion it should still be available to administrators as I am sure that one of your major considerations would been how to make his job easier.

I hadn't looked at the code before but I notice that the data for this is (looking at individual .php) is actually displayed using divs and not in a table.

Not to undermine your decision or wishes, I apologise in advance for my persistence and I'll understand if you are reticent or refuse to answer this but If I wanted to make the Invidual ID available to this page only and to div id="indi_name_details" under birth/death info, so that it's only visible by admin, what sort of code would need to be added?

Much appreciated and please forgive me for pursuing it further - Jean
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IDs (XREFs in gedcom jargon) 10 years 7 months ago #4

  • mlocati
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Here Greg suggested an alternative solution...
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IDs (XREFs in gedcom jargon) 10 years 7 months ago #5

  • fisharebest
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There were lots of reasons why we removed the display of XREFs.

1) They take up a lot of space. We would need to leave space for " (X12345)" in every layout.

2) They are in latin script. This does not look good for users with other scripts; arabic, cyrillic, greek, hebrew, etc. Would you like XREFs in arabic or chinese? Probably not - and so arabic/chinese users do not want latin identifiers.

3) They can display very badly when mixed with right-to-left scripts such as arabic and hebrew - especially with older browsers.

4) We do not want to be a gedcom editor (like PGV). We want to be a web-based genealogical application (that can read/write gedcom).

5) We are all very IT-literate. We understand database keys, reference codes, etc. For many of our users (who are typically much older and much less IT literate), they confuse far more than they help.

6) They force users to think in terms of gedcom structure. We need to be free to present data in a more natural strucutre, and hide the internal differences. For example, the difference between inline-notes and record-based-notes..... There should just be "notes". The program should hide the differences.

7) What if we want to use (or link to) data with a non-gedcom format? I am working on a new data model which has no families. It is based on "events" which can be shared between multiple people, for example a marriage event, which has two participants with a role of "spouse", and possibly other participants with roles of "witness", etc.). I have almost finished linking this to the webtrees GUI. I can display family groups (based on parentage, adoption, partnership and marriage), but I have no "family xref" to display.

If you think you need XREFs, then you are probably asking the wrong question. You said you like to email them to people. Perhaps you really want to ask for simple/short URLs?
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net
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IDs (XREFs in gedcom jargon) 10 years 7 months ago #6

  • kiwi
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.... and Greg forgot to mention that any display would have to allow for XREFs of up to 22 characters long - thats what the GEDCOM spec allows for, and some software uses much of that capacity!

PLEASE give this change some time - you DO ge used to it, I promise....
Nigel

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IDs (XREFs in gedcom jargon) 10 years 7 months ago #7

  • potain
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Thanks guys

I wasn't expecting such a thorough explanation behind your reasons and it all makes sense. Obviously I don't possess as intimate knowledge of GECOMS as you do and my knowledge of scripting languages and databases is also very limited but I am learning and just looking at your code even though I don't understand most of it helps a lot.

This is for my own education and enlightenment so it might be off topic. Excuse my ignorance but what I don't understand though is the database structure . l am looking at the individuals table.

There is a field i_rin which holds the RIN which is the XREF which is obtained from the gedcom INDI - am I right so far?

It is a varchar type with a maximum length 20. So you're short of two characters there, kiwi.

But the same type and information is held in field i_id. Why is that - it seems to be a duplicate of i_rin and be a case of redundancy.

Unless I am missing something here why can't an int type be used there instead and let the database assign a sequential number automatically to an id field, which for one would overcome the language issues and presumably linking to non gedcom data as well.
I would think that once the gedcom data is imported into the database you would only need the id of the record to perform manipulations on it and not the RIN or XREF, but if needed that can be accessed by using the i_rin.

You can also control the length of the integer type and I would imagine five would be ample to meet the demands of the biggest database. I am not sure of this but would using an integer possibly speed up database access and help with indexing?

As for its display and placement - made only available when viewed by Site Admin - what's wrong with where the Globally unique Identifier was in the Personal details tab in PGV or in the Family Group Information section. It does not have to be in the header as this information is for administrative purposes and make it a non editable but selectable text so that people don't play around with it. Inded, why can't the pid be posted there instead of having to get it from the browser address bar? To me it complicates matters and makes that much harder to use the program rather than easier.

Yes I can send user the link to their pages to be viewed on the browser or they can save it themselves but we are talking about here is efficiency in using the program itself - the less clicks the better and typing or copy and pasting the id whether it be for an individual or family into the search box is the most direct, effective, accurate, dependable shortcut available to retrieve the appropriate record in the quickest time possible.

As I mentioned before the information can easily be obtained with PhpMyAdmin by why put people to that trouble when it can be incorporated into the program itself?


Jean
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IDs (XREFs in gedcom jargon) 10 years 7 months ago #8

  • kiwi
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There is a field i_rin which holds the RIN which is the XREF which is obtained from the gedcom INDI - am I right so far?

Nope - quite wrong :-(

Probably a good idea to read the GEDCOM spec. You can download a copy from a link on the front page of our WIKI.

PLEASE NOW END THIS DISCUSSION. Sorry but its getting out of hand AGAIN!

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Nigel

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