Web based family history software

Question Middle Name

  • Klugesherz
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3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 8 months ago #21 by Klugesherz
Replied by Klugesherz on topic Middle Name

norwegian_sardines wrote: Did you look at the pictures I included here ?

Yes Sure.
But this is no the solution I prefer ...
Because, there is no sense to highlight Nathalie in the "Name". (Because no used)

norwegian_sardines wrote: The name that is listed first will be the call name (preferred, rufname).
Where "Ludvig" is the call name not Johan. It would render: .. with *

OK I understood now the signification of the *

Perhaps the trick is here:

norwegian_sardines wrote: ALSO... I thought you said Nathaline was a middle name. This name would not go in the Given name field.

Yes too, BUT
The fact is that WebTrees is proposing only one field for "Given Names"
"Give Name(s)" "Prénom(s)"

norwegian_sardines wrote: Just because the document you are using has the name as "Marie, Nathalie" does not mean that you are to enter it in this form in webtrees.

I guess that is the solution ...
to simply to ignore the "Middle Name" here,
AND use a Note like shown below

WebTrees 2.1.x---> My famility tree
PHP 8.0
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Last edit: 3 years 8 months ago by Klugesherz.

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3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 8 months ago #22 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Middle Name
Klugesherz,

Yes Sure.
But this is no the solution I prefer ...
Because, there is no sense to highlight Nathalie in the "Name". (Because no used)


Now I'm confused! Why does it not make sense to 'highlight Nathalie in the "Name".' The NAME field is used to hold the full name of the individual. I'm assuming that your daughter's full name is "Marie Nathalie Klugesherz". So this is the value that goes here. This is a real database field and is stored in this way. On lists this is the name value that is displayed.

I'm assuming that (Marie = First Name, Nathalie = Middle Name, Klugesherz = surname).

Normally the given name in western cultures is the combination of First Name(s) + Middle Name(s). Normally this would all go into the Given Name Field and for most people that would be enough to be automatically copied into the NAME field and stored that way in the database.

For example:
Full Name = Mary Ann /Wilson/
Given Name = Mary Ann
Surname = Wilson

HOWEVER...

webtrees can allow you to modify this to highlight different aspects of the name. For instance: In the above example Mary liked to be called Mari rather than Mary. Mari becomes a nickname and is also entered into the database as such.

Full Name = Mary Ann /Wilson/
Given Name = Mary Ann
Surname = Wilson
Nickname = Mari

You can leave it this way and the nickname Mari is not visible in lists to users. OR you can enter it this way:
Full Name = Mary Ann "Mari" /Wilson/
Given Name = Mary Ann
Surname = Wilson
Nickname = Mari

And Mari will be part of the full name listing.

Historically my family did not have a surname and therefore I can't enter a value in the surname field.
I would enter:
Full Name = Borghild Andersdatter Bruflott
Given Name = Borghild Andersdatter Bruflott
Surname = (nothing entered)

Bruflott was not a surname at the time she lived, it was the farm name she lived on and Andersdatter was an identifier that she was Ander's daughter.
Please Note: that the Full Name (entered into the Name Field) does not have "//" this indicated that the individual does not have a surname. I must modify the Name Field to achieve this.

IN CONCLUSION

You have two options.

1)Enter the following, the simplest:
Full Name = Marie Nathalie /Klugesherz/
Given Name = Marie Nathalie
Surname = Klugesherz

2) Enter this, which highlights only first name, but displays her full name
Full Name = Marie Nathalie /Klugesherz/
Given Name = Marie
Surname = Klugesherz

Because "Marie" is her first name and you have not told us any differently by giving us a nickname or a preferred name (that is not her first name) by convention her first name is her call name.

Ken
Last edit: 3 years 8 months ago by norwegian_sardines.

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3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 8 months ago #23 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Middle Name
Klugesherz,

I thought of a third way you could enter the information.

3) Enter this, If you don't care to display the full name in list just the first name + surname, but you want to record that she has a middle name.
Full Name = Marie /Klugesherz/
Given Name = Marie, Nathalie
Surname = Klugesherz


To achieve this you would first enter the Given Name (Marie, Nathalie) then the surname (Klugesherz). After entering these two values click the little icon next to the Name field and remove the name Nathalie.


This will then provide you with a display that does not use the middle name if it is not important to you.

This would then give you this:

Ken
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Last edit: 3 years 8 months ago by norwegian_sardines.

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3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 8 months ago #24 by Klugesherz
Replied by Klugesherz on topic Middle Name
Many many thanks for these clarifications, patience and help Ken.
Really appreciated !

You're last proposal might be the solution: ;-)

I haven't though that by starting this topic, this would be so fascinating.
Finally what I observe is that the "Given name" topic is a complex subject

When I try to summarize the subject here in 2 words:
1) Follow the "official documents" by entering all the "official information" in WebTrees
2) Be able to point out the "called Name", or "The usual first name" in order to point out what is mandatory

My conclusion
when I approach this topic in another manner, (as genealogical's beginner), the conclusion that I might take, is that there is something missing in the gedcom implementation.
The subject itself, should be easy for everyone, however, it is not.
It can be a nightmare... what it should not

Without being pretentious, here my 2 cents.
There could be an easy solution to respect all theses constraints.
--> by adding a new field in the gedcom database : "CalledName" or "RufName" or "UsualFirstName"

On this new approach:

"Given Name(s)" : would be the list of all "first names" : first, middle,.. i.e. : all the information that we grab from the official documents
"CalledName" : would be the called first name of the person in here life :
"Full Name": would be always the combination of : "Given Name", "Surname" ...
--> The displayed information would be the combination of "CalledName" + "Surname"
In case without data in "CalledName", then
--> The displayed information would be the combination of "Given Name" + "Surname"

This could be like this

--> It is like your last proposal but in a more intuitive manner

Last and not the least, francegenweb.org is proposing a completely other approach..
Indeed :
The usual first name is the first name by which a person chooses to be called in everyday life, among all those given to him at birth and who are registered with the civil status.
General input rules
Enter only the usual first name (the others will be in the notes)


Conclusion
Everyone is trying to find a solution, or some artefacts, to adapt to its need
Adding a new field would I guess simplify the approach.

Open to the gedcom experts for their inputs and opinions about this approach

Merci à tous !

WebTrees 2.1.x---> My famility tree
PHP 8.0
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Last edit: 3 years 8 months ago by Klugesherz.

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3 years 8 months ago #25 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Middle Name
Klugesherz,

1) The GEDCOM standard v5.5.1 is a document that you should read yourself. It is not controlled by webtrees or any other entity at this time. It will not change! Asking for a change here is not something we can handle.

2) At present webtrees does not allow adding non-standard user defined GEDCOM tags, but this is slated for a later release of webtrees. My advise is, “be careful when adding user defined tags, they will most likely not transfer to other programs in GEDCOM.“

3) I still don’t understand the real reason you need to have a field specifically for middle name! You have not convinced me that it is needed. I’ve been doing genealogy since the 1980s and it has not been an issue for me or any of my clients.

4) Ultimately, the data is your data and you can do anything with it that you want. Your initial question asked about where to enter middle names, and the most straight forward answer is put it following the first name(s) in the given name field. If you don’t like that answer then you can do anything else that you want if it makes sense to you.

5) I’m not sure who the people at Genweb are but they (in my opinion) are wrong about using Notes for other names. GEDCOM allows for multiple name tags and entries. I advocate using separate name tags for “aka”, “birth”, “married”, alternate spellings, nicknames. Remember, the database is part of your research initiative and documenting all names helps you and your viewer online know who they are looking at in lists. I recommend enter a new name for any nickname found during your research period, particularly if you are doing family history rather than pure genealogy.

6) If you want to follow the recommendation at Genweb then that is your call but I personally don’t understand why they would want to make webtrees follow those recommendations! This includes placing quotes around first names, entering alternate names in notes (which means they are not indexed) I’ve never seen this in any other recommendation in my nearly 40 years of genealogy work.

7) They refer to Heredis, if these are recommendation to make this program work better, these recommendations may not work with other programs.

Ken

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3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 8 months ago #26 by bertkoor
Replied by bertkoor on topic Middle Name
There are two separate issues:

1. The breakdown of a name in GEDCOM structure (given names & surname) differs from your view (first, middle & last name)
There is no good solution. But you can imagine how this is for Chinese people trying to use webtrees. We have had this discussed...

2. You try to shoehorn multiple names into one. Why not just accept that a person has an official name as it appears on documents, id cards, and an informal name. Two names that can be completely different. You can put multiple names on one person. There is a button labelled "add name". You can reorder them so the preferred one goes on diagrams.

You say your daughter never uses her middle name, but that cannot be true.
Name on airplane boarding pass should be the same as on passport.

stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13
Last edit: 3 years 8 months ago by bertkoor.

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3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 8 months ago #27 by Klugesherz
Replied by Klugesherz on topic Middle Name
Many many thanks for your patience, explanations, and guidance.

Finally the solution I will use, is the solution that I'm already using, and which have been highlighted above too.

--> Put multiple names on one person.

I use this possibility to point out that a person had different "Given Names", linked to the fact that :

During the Second World War, Alsace was attached from 1940 to 1944 to Nazi Germany.
During this period, words of French origin were prohibited and people with French names were Germanized.
Alsace becomes definitively French after the Second World War.



Now I will extend this possibility to this case too : where "Middle Name" are on official document, but not used.

This approach will simply answer all open points :-)
So we can consider this question closed.

Many thanks again.

Perhaps one last question, if you do mind:
What is the difference between: "family history" rather and "pure genealogy" ?

WebTrees 2.1.x---> My famility tree
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Last edit: 3 years 8 months ago by Klugesherz.

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3 years 8 months ago #28 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Middle Name
Pure Genealogy, records family blood line and little else.
Family History, is much more!

Ken

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3 years 8 months ago #29 by Klugesherz
Replied by Klugesherz on topic Middle Name
Understood !
Merci

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PHP 8.0

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