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Custom Tag 8 years 2 months ago #1

  • Shemwell
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Does anyone have any suggestions on the proper gedcom tag for fraternal organizations?, the only thing I can see is a custom event. I have a lot of individuals that belonged to organizations and a tag to denote membership or organizations would be nice... hint hint.. or would a custom tag be in order?.
Barry

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Custom Tag 8 years 2 months ago #2

  • kiwi
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I'm pretty sure there is no standard tag for this, and you should ALWAYS avoid custom ones at every opportunity. They are just too unreliable when transferring data from software to software.

The correct solution is to use either of the tags FACT or EVEN. In your case I would describe it as a fact (FACT). They then include sub-tags of TYPE to describe the organisation, and dates, places as appropriate.
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Custom Tag 8 years 2 months ago #3

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Is membership an event, or a fact?
A special organization activity is undoubtedly an event, but is the simple fact of membership an event?

From the standard: "Added a generic FACT tag to the individual attribute structure. Previously, the generic EVEN tag was used. The FACT was added to give a semantic difference between generic events and generic facts or characteristics (see <<INDIVIDUAL_ATTRIBUTE_STRUCTURE>>, page 33.)"
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Custom Tag 8 years 2 months ago #4

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Certainly a grey area in my experience.

The spec goes on to say:

EVENT_OR_FACT_CLASSIFICATION:= {Size=1:90}
A descriptive word or phrase used to further classify the parent event or attribute tag. This should be
used whenever either of the generic EVEN or FACT tags are used. The value of this primative is
responsible for classifying the generic event or fact being cited. For example, if the attribute being
defined was one of the persons skills, such as woodworking, the FACT tag would have the value of
`Woodworking', followed by a subordinate TYPE tag with the value `Skills.'
1 FACT Woodworking
2 TYPE Skills
This groups the fact into a generic skills attribute, and in particular this entry records the fact that this
individual possessed the skill of woodworking. Using the subordinate TYPE tag classification method
with any of the other defined event tags provides a further classification of the parent tag but does not
change the basic meaning of the parent tag.


But this is perhaps the most useful clarification from the spec (p. 35)

As a general rule, events are things that happen on a specific date. Use the date form ‘BET date
AND date’ to indicate that an event took place at some time between two dates. Resist the
temptation to use a ‘FROM date TO date’ form in an event structure. If the subject of your
recording occurred over a period of time, then it is probably not an event, but rather an attribute or
fact.


For me this implies that a period of membership (FROM one date TO another) is a FACT.
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Custom Tag 8 years 2 months ago #5

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Nigel, thanks for the technical validation of my hypothesis. I do believe it would be a FACT: Brothers of the Order of Dodos, TYPE: membership.
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Custom Tag 8 years 2 months ago #6

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Nigel, thanks for the technical validation of my hypothesis. I do believe it would be a FACT: Brothers of the Order of Dodos, TYPE: membership.


Yes... This is the way I would write it as well. The FACT.DATE would/coulld have a FROM date TO date

An event for this membership would be used when they attain a specific level of the order.

EVEN.TYPE Awarded Rank of Grand Dodo, Order of Dodos EVEN tags do not have a "Description" just a TYPE. The EVEN.DATE would have a specific date. (it could have a FROM/TO but that sounds more like a fact which would then be written to tell us that they held the rank for a specifc time period, not that they attained the rank on a specific date)
Ken

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Custom Tag 8 years 2 months ago #7

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When I check my gedcom for errors, it tells me, No errors were found. I know there old tags like PHOTO,(Photograph), TXPY (Taxpayer), SELR(Seller) and other no longer gedcom compliant tags. There's over 8000 individuals and countless tags, so I found a program to weed them out..
GEDCOM Validator -http://chronoplexsoftware.com/gedcomvalidator/index.htm, it's free so I thought I would pass it on, as it might be useful.

I've been using the Cemetery CEME tag under Burial, I see it is no longer gedcom compliant, should it be changed to _CEME?

Under "Find a fact or event", are all the tags starting with an underscore user defined?, _MILT, _MILI, _MARNM, _TODO, etc... Should I use Fact instead?. Some of my users don't even know the difference between surnames and given names, I hate to dumb it down but Military, Married Name, Membership, etc. is far less intimidating and more user friendly than Fact or EVEN. If I ever want to export the gedcom to another program (doubtful, as webtrees is such an awesome program) I can easily "find and replace" in a good text editor.

Barry
Barry

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Custom Tag 8 years 2 months ago #8

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Well defined GEDCOM says the custom tags should begin with an "_".

One of the biggest issues with custom tags is that they are NOT universally understood, or self documenting.

In GEDCOM data definition lamguage (DDL) we know for sure that the BIRT tag indicates birth information.

The DDL has no defiition for _MILT so we are left to make a guess. Is _MILI = MILItary or is _MILT = MILiTary?

While a well defined FACT/EVEN can be more self documenting.

FACT.VALUE, FACT.TYPE and EVEN.TYPE are usually words.


EDIT:

Personally I would place my cemetary information in one or both of the following places:

1) BURI.PLAC
2) BURI.ADDR
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.
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Custom Tag 8 years 2 months ago #9

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Some of my users don't even know the difference between surnames and given names, I hate to dumb it down but Military, Married Name, Membership, etc. is far less intimidating and more user friendly than Fact or EVEN.

Barry, you are not alone, but you will find that chances are, very few relatives will actively participate, it is easy to repair their data entry errors while you review and approve their changes, and truly active members will learn proper procedures and terminology with a little coaching from you. Eventually, you'll have little need to make lots of changes of their entered data.

Two niggles: (1) please remove the http: from your profile here on the webtrees forum and your link to your site will be 'repaired' and become active, and (2) your FAQ link in your header fails for me. I do see you have a well-defined set of FAQs, but AFAICT, you can't get there from your welcome page without knowing the precise URL.
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Custom Tag 8 years 2 months ago #10

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When I check my gedcom for errors, it tells me, No errors were found. I know there old tags like PHOTO,(Photograph), TXPY (Taxpayer), SELR(Seller) and other no longer gedcom compliant tags. There's over 8000 individuals and countless tags, so I found a program to weed them out..
GEDCOM Validator -http://chronoplexsoftware.com/gedcomvalidator/index.htm, it's free so I thought I would pass it on, as it might be useful.


Thats a good tip. webtrees erorr checker is looking for errors that might cause problems. Those that you refer to don't. That's quite different from the purpose of gedcomvalidator. One correction though, those tags are not "OLD", they never did exist officially. Some software product has incorrectly created them, and failed to identify them with an underscore ("_TXPY"). webtrees has no problem importing and displaying them.

I've been using the Cemetery CEME tag under Burial, I see it is no longer gedcom compliant, should it be changed to _CEME?

To reiterate Ken's answer, in layman's terms :-)) add cemetery information either as part of a place name, or as an address (or a note if you prefer).

Under "Find a fact or event", are all the tags starting with an underscore user defined?, _MILT, _MILI, _MARNM, _TODO, etc...

They are all "custom", but not user defined. They are software product defined.

Should I use Fact instead?.

Yes, ideally you should. But many of us don't. I certainly still use _MARNM because webtrees will help me create married names on-the-fly only with this tag. When webtrees (probably webtrees2 or beyond) does that with NAME:TYPE I will change. Also, if you want to use webtrees' "To do" block, then you have to also use the _TODO tag. Yes - even webtrees has some custom tags of its own. If we use them, we must be aware they might not transfer to other software.

Some of my users don't even know the difference between surnames and given names, I hate to dumb it down but Military, Married Name, Membership, etc. is far less intimidating and more user friendly than Fact or EVEN. If I ever want to export the gedcom to another program (doubtful, as webtrees is such an awesome program) I can easily "find and replace" in a good text editor.

I agree, and webtrees never requires any user (except you as admin) to know tags like _MILI. They only see words like "Military". At present that works fine, but as (if) we start to remove more custom tags, then they will I'm afraid need to also use the two terms "Fact" and "Custom event" more often. Not really that hard, especially if the list of options is shorter (your choice in admin settings), just a case of telling them "If you can't find the fact you want, use "Fact" or "Custom event" "
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Last edit: by kiwi.

Custom Tag 8 years 2 months ago #11

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While we are on this subject, and to digress slightly from the original topic.....

My personal hope is that in some future version of webtrees we will completely hide the concept of GEDCOM. In that I mean, we will be able to import any (within reason) GEDCOM file, and export a 100% valid GEDCOM file. What happens in between would and should be totally irrelevant to all users. Data storage would not be restricted, as webtrees is now, to "GEDCOM formats". There would be no ability or need to ever "edit raw GEDCOM data", because no such construct would exist outside of those import/export functions.

That would make us free to create facts such as "Fraternal membership" (not that I think I would ever recommend it), and allow users to add, edit and delete them. BUT if we ever want to export that data to a valid GEDCOM file it would come out as a FACT (or EVEN), with the correct sub-tags etc, and not with any sort of custom GEDCOM tag.
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Last edit: by kiwi.

Custom Tag 8 years 2 months ago #12

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Two niggles: (1) please remove the http: from your profile here on the webtrees forum and your link to your site will be 'repaired' and become active, and (2) your FAQ link in your header fails for me. I do see you have a well-defined set of FAQs, but AFAICT, you can't get there from your welcome page without knowing the precise URL.


1- Done
2- Not sure... are you referring to the Blue ?(FAQ) Icon? Works on my end...

Barry

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Custom Tag 8 years 2 months ago #13

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While we are on this subject, and to digress slightly from the original topic.....

My personal hope is that in some future version of webtrees we will completely hide the concept of GEDCOM. In that I mean, we will be able to import any (within reason) GEDCOM file, and export a 100% valid GEDCOM file. What happens in between would and should be totally irrelevant to all users. Data storage would not be restricted, as webtrees is now, to "GEDCOM formats". There would be no ability or need to ever "edit raw GEDCOM data", because no such construct would exist outside of those import/export functions.

That would make us free to create facts such as "Fraternal membership" (not that I think I would ever recommend it), and allow users to add, edit and delete them. BUT if we ever want to export that data to a valid GEDCOM file it would come out as a FACT (or EVEN), with the correct sub-tags etc, and not with any sort of custom GEDCOM tag.



I couldn't find the "LIKE" button.
P.S. I use most of your ‘Simpl’ webtrees add-ons, looking forward to the Simpl_designer theme.. really like look and the 3 columns. Thanks
Barry

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