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Testers wanted! 9 years 10 months ago #1

  • WGroleau
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Uncles and cousins and aunts—oh, my!

I think I finally figured out how to make these work in Spanish!

I'm sure I've got the gender correct, and in several tests it seems that the rest is working. But the terminology and relationships are so #$$%^$% confusing that some help evaluating would be wonderful.

If you would like to try a few, you could either

1. Just run some relationship charts on my database where the code is already installed, or

2. Unzip the attached file over includes/functions/functions.php in a webtrees installation of SVN 9417 or later. The 9418 snapshot would be ideal. Note: Use the newer zip file uploaded later to this thread for SVN 9488 through 9530.

I have attempted to explain the terminology in UniGen.us/Parentesco.html It’s quite difficult to use, but frankly, I haven't been able to find anything better online that was complete.

File Attachment:

File Name: functions.zip
File Size:30 KB
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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 10 months ago #2

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OK, no one's interested. Fair enough.

I've tried it on a variety of ___ uncles, ___aunts, ___cousins, and such and I think it works. I'm attaching a newer version. This one should work from SVN 9488 through 9551. I'd like to see it tried out in several snapshot builds.

File Attachment:

File Name: functions-...0924.zip
File Size:30 KB
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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 10 months ago #3

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Hi

I'd like to help you out if I can but I haven't got access to the SVN nor do I speak or write Spanish so I used Google to translate UniGen.us/Parentesco.htm and a couple of things strike me. Neither do I know any coding.

1. some words are not being translated into English which could mean that they are either misspelt or don't exist. (the mozilla addons page is not working at the moment so I can't add a Spanish dictionary to Firefox otherwise I would have checked)

2. the relationships as translated don't make sense.
the first one between Jose and Juan is translated as John is Joseph himself ! (self)

3. What you might be missing is a column that represents Juan.

I've done a quick grid in a spreadsheet of the way that I would organise the data before translating it. Don't know if it that's what you're after or if it will be of any help you but at least I've tried.

Jean

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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 10 months ago #4

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The point of the table was to organize what Spanish-speakers call these relationships. What they are called in English is already in the code. If I needed the English, the Google translator is NOT a reliable source. In fact, for a good laugh, paste a sample of text in your language into translate.google.com and convert it to any other language. Then switch directions and paste the result, translating back to your language.

Also, you can't test my code by fetching it from SVN unless the developers have already merged it in. I attached it to the forum post.

Finally, if you are not fluent in Spanish, the only way to test my code is to see if it matches the table I cited.

I appreciate your willingness to help. Sorry I wasn't more clear in my request.

And apologies to everyone for my silly "no one's interested." More likely it's that no one felt qualified to judge something in Spanish. I certainly had a hard time with it.
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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 10 months ago #5

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Thought that was I sticking my nose where it doesn't belong but my curiosity got the better of me.
If you ever need a fluent French person let me know.
Jean

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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 10 months ago #6

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Well, actually, I would welcome your input. I just don't think either Google or the English test will help. In fact, since you mention French, I have no clue what the French would call the grandson of my great-great-grandfather's brother. But I do know that what the Spanish call it can't match one for one with the current set of English phrases. Which is why I uploaded that code.

I can however, try to explain the "logic" of the Spanish terms with literal word-by-word English translations.

My father's brother CAN be matched to English "uncle"
My grandfather's brother in Spanish is two words, and if each is lliterally translated, you get "uncle grandfather"
His son similarly converted yields "uncle grandfather second."
Those are "____ cousin ____ removed, ascending" in English--one phrase with substitutions, where Spanish has multiple phrases. That's why I could not provide ONE Spanish translation for that English text.

cousins descending gets similar combinations of "nephew ____father (ordinal number)"

And of course, just like in French, we have to handle the gender of the person--on every word in the phrase
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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 10 months ago #7

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WGroleau wrote: "no clue what the French would call the grandson of my great-great-grandfather's brother."

Can't say that I've come across a special word for it and I've asked in one of the French forums I belong to with no luck - for a direct translation I'd say : le grandfils du frère de mon arrière-arrière-grand-père.

PGV has a French form www.forumphpgedview.fr/ so you might ask there and see if they can help.

I've also come across a couple of web sites that might be of interest (you probably are already aware of them but still):
www.genealogia-es.com/guia3.html#z10 has a genealogical vocabulary table with generation terms.

forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=98206 has a discussion on Great-great-great grandparents and so on..... for Spanish.


Jean

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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 10 months ago #8

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Sorry, once again I have muddied the waters. I wasn't really asking for the French translation, just pointing out my ignorance. I rely on whoever is doing the French translation for that. I can read French (just barely), but the last time I tried to speak it, the lady thought I was deaf and tried to give me money.

But for Spanish, until a native speaker¹ signs up, it seems it's up to me. Thanks for those links. I had not found the first one, though I did see something similar. I looked at quite a few and my Parentesco table was an attempt to organize the results in a way that would help me figure out an algorithm. I think I have done so, but additional testing wouldn't hurt.

¹I speak moderately well, and read at a little above what the government calls "limited working proficiency."
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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 10 months ago #9

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I can read French (just barely), but the last time I tried to speak it, the lady thought I was deaf and tried to give me money.

And yet another tale. I love reading about your many experiences, but they leave me wanting - However, I can say that with my limited Cantonese I overheard two young (20's) women speaking behind me in an elevator in Taipei and I was able to turn around and assure them that 'the equipment' was appropriately sized for the figure (I'm 6'4" and at the time 225#). Fast approaching 60, and I can still laugh about that one.

Wes, I didn't interpret your statement to be a plea for assistance in translation, so I think there was little confusion. Unfortunately my Spanish is awful, and extends to pleasant greetings, counting from 1 to 20 and "cerveza mucho más, por favor". My French is a tad better, but I'd never pretend to be fluent.
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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 10 months ago #10

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And yet another tale. I love reading about your many experiences, but they leave me wanting

Well, if I really let loose, we'd be WAY off-topic. But since we already are, I still chuckle about the red face that resulted when I asked the couple at the other end of the cafeteria table "Where are you from" in the same language they had been speaking.
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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 10 months ago #11

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Ah well at least now you know what it is Wes, you've been educated.

The fun thing about languages is not letting on that you do understand what they are speaking - in Mauritius where I come from we speak French and also a local dialect and have a multitude of races and many a time I've died laughing at people who thought that their Creole conversations were safe from eavesdroppers.

Surprised that you haven't acquired a few swear words in Spanish, Stephen.

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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 10 months ago #12

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This version is suitable for release 1.0.3 or SVN 9552 through 9577.

File Attachment:

File Name: functions-...0929.zip
File Size:30 KB
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Last edit: by WGroleau.

Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 6 months ago #13

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Mr. Groleau do you still need helps with the spanish relationship terminology, or just to check if you work is correct using it in a real database? My mother language is spanish, my english is awful, but I can help if you want.

Thanks.

xavax

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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 6 months ago #14

Hello everyone,

WGroleau wrote: "no clue what the French would call the grandson of my great-great-grandfather's brother."

Potain wrote : "Can't say that I've come across a special word for it and I've asked in one of the French forums I belong to with no luck - for a direct translation I'd say : le grandfils du frère de mon arrière-arrière-grand-père.


In French, it is le petit-fils du frère de mon arrière-arrière-grand-père.
This individual is also le petit-neveu de mon arrière-arrière-grand-père. (as neveu = nephew)

grand-son = petit-fils
grand-daughter = petite-fille
grand-niece = petite-nièce
grand-nephew = petit-neveu
great-great = arrière-arrière
etc.

as much great- you use in English as much arrière- in French

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Last edit: by Jackie.

Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 6 months ago #15

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Jackie - and others.

Translating relationship names is a difficult issue. For close relatives (up to 4 or 5 steps), we translate every possibility separately. This is why the translation files include lots of repetitions, such as

uncle (mother's brother)
uncle (father's brother)
uncle (parent's brother)

These words are the same in english/french, but are different in languages such as polish.

Similarly, we have relationships that have no name in english, such as the spanish for your "child's spouse's parent".

If your language has no name for the relationship, just use your best approximation. This last example becomes something like "son-in-law's mother" in english.

We include every case that (potentially) has a distinct name in any language. This may be repetitive, but we can be sure it will work in any language.

But for distant relations, we have to use rules - and different languages have different rules for calculating relationship names. So, an english "great xN grandfather" is a danish "great x(N-1) grand-grandfather" and an english "3rd cousin" is a polish "6th cousin".

We have the following "calculated" relationships, all based on two people with a common ancestor.

great xN grandparent
great xN grandchild
great xN aunt/uncle
great xN nephew/niece
cousin.

For each of these, we group languages according to their "rule". Unless someone tells us to the contrary, we use the english rules.

The first 4 are quite easy. The options are simply to replace N with N+1 or N-1

The last one (cousin) is tricky, as it has the greatest number of rules, and the most complicated rules.

Wes did write some code for Spanish, but it needed some tweaking to fit in with the rest of the code, and I didn't understand the logic for spanish names well enough to be able to do it myself. I had completely forgotten about this, until the thread was "bumped". I guess I really ought to find the time to look at it again.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 6 months ago #16

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This has all made a very confusing subject even worse, so I am going to answer "xavax" in a new topic as soon as I get to a better location for posting.

I'm enjoying the bits of Cantonese and French, but they don't help the Spanish question at all.
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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 6 months ago #17

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Hope no one is too annoyed if I change my mind and respond here.

There are really three questions. They relate to each other, but any of them can be answered by itself.

1. Does my table reflect the terms that should be used? It's based partially on a lawyer's article about it. He claimed that these terms are written into law in five countries. Other sources seemed to agree. But there just aren't very many sources. Just like in English, most people just say primo/tío/abuelo (cousin/uncle/grandfather) without all the clarifying "greats" and "removeds" and such.

2. Does my code generate the terms the table specifies? I am pretty confident of that as well, but it would be nice to have someone besides myself test it. One way to test would be to send me a GEDCOM that you are familiar with. I can load it into my site and make you the manager of it. Then the relationship chart will use this changed code. Another way is to replace functions.php with the version attached on your own site. For that, your site's SVN hold be between 10381 and 10574.


3. Does my code need stylistic or other changes to fit better into the project? If so, what's the best way to get that done without making the output wrong?

File Attachment:

File Name: functions.gz
File Size:29 KB


[EDIT: attachment renamed so it works as an attachment instead of a link (removed the ".php" from the title)]
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Last edit: by kiwi.

Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 6 months ago #18

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Mister Groleau:

I can give it a try, but your last link/file is not downloading.

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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 6 months ago #19

xavax - try again now.
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Re:Testers wanted! 9 years 6 months ago #20

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I do not know what to say. I clicked on the link in FireFox and got another copy of it downloaded.
I double-clicked the downloaded file and it uncompressed. It unfortunately uncompressed to filename "functions" which would have to be changed to "functions.php" and put into includes/functions

Make sure you save your official file!

Or, you could test with your GEDCOM on my site.
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