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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 5 days ago #1

  • trejder
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How can I add some other fact to a shared note or to a place in 1.7.17?

It seems that:

1. There's no "Edit GEDCOM file" on shared note screen, in Edit menu (there's just "Edit note" item.
2. There's no "Edit GEDCOM" link in edit share note screen.
3. There are only "Source" and "Restriction" items in "Fact or event" line.

How can I control what can be added to a shared note? Or to a place?

When I go to Control Panel > Family trees > Manage family tree > Preferences I have a full flexibility of controlling:

- which facts can be added,
- which facts are considered unique,
- which facts are default for new records,
- which are "quick" facts,

but for individual, family, source and repository only. How can I control this at note, shared note, place etc. level?

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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 5 days ago #2

  • bertkoor
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Places are not first-class citizens in GEDCOM like individuals & families, sources & repositories. Sorry, you cannot add any other tags there.

A (shared) note consists according to the GEDCOM specs of it's XREF id, the note text, optionally a user reference, source citation, and change date which webtrees administrates by itself.
When editing a note in its own page, you can add the source citation. Only the REFN option is missing. Nothing else is allowed.

May I ask what type of data specifically you would like to add?
stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13

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Last edit: by bertkoor.

Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 5 days ago #3

  • trejder
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This was more like general question, why do I have a huge flexibility in managing what facts can be added to individuals & families, sources & repositories, but not to shared notes or places.

And you have answered precisely: "Places are not first-class citizens in GEDCOM like individuals & families, sources & repositories".

As for your question, I wanted to add date to shared note (which is explained in another question, I think, that this violates GEDCOM) and I wanted to add a source to a place.

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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 5 days ago #4

  • bertkoor
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A place is just an attribute to an event or fact.
Events & facts may be linked to a source.
Events occur on a date, facts do not.
Notes may be added to nearly everything and contain just explanatory text. You can link them to a source, but usually you'd put some text in the source citation.
stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13

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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 5 days ago #5

  • trejder
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Thank you.

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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 5 days ago #6

  • norwegian_sardines
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trejder said:

I wanted to add a source to a place.

In my viewpoint this is illogical. When you add a fact to an individual or family you add a source of where that fact/event came from. The place is part of an event therefore it is based on the source where you found the fact/event. A place would not have a source independent of the event that occurred.
Ken

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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 5 days ago #7

GEDCOM has some problems, the definition is old, but we do not have something better. :-)

One of the problems is the place handling. Some genealogist and software producer (mostly from Germany) developed an addendum to GEDCOM which is called GEDCOM-L. ( www.google.com/amp/s/blog.eogn.com/2020/...dcom-l-addendum/amp/ ).
There is also an implementation for this in webtrees - the Vesta modules written by Richard Cissee cissee.de/ .

You cann find a lot of discussions in the webtrees forum regarding places and "feature requests" for support of level 0 place records.

Ladislav
webtrees 2.0.7 + ⚶ Vesta modules (from cissee.de/ )
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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 4 days ago #8

  • bertkoor
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norwegian_sardines wrote: A place would not have a source independent of the event that occurred.


Hmmm... sometimes you get only the date (eg birth) from one source, then later you find another source with the place. Or vice versa.

Alas, there's no proper way in gedcom to record that, other than using source citation & transcript texts or notes, or just discard the first incomplete source in favour of the better source.

Or leave that puzzle to a future reader to figure out what came from where actually. At least you pointed to some sources, so let them do the work and look them up. Why else provide sources? So it can be checked!
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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 4 days ago #9

  • norwegian_sardines
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Bert Said:

Hmmm... sometimes you get only the date (eg birth) from one source, then later you find another source with the place. Or vice versa.


I just note it in the source_citation that the Date was found in one source and the place was found in another. I have multiple places in my database where I have conflicting information or found additional information in another source and I just say:

1 BIRT
2 DATE 10 JAN 1850
2 PLAC Naustdal Kommune, Norway
2 SOUR @S399@
3 NOTE The birth date is probably the date that was registered at the church and not the actual date of the birth because the child was born at the farm.
2 SOUR @S99@
3 NOTE In Joe's interview he could not remember when his grandfather was born.

I interviewed Joe and learned from him when his grandfather was born, Later I found some documentation about the birth but knew that most people were born at the farm and the church recorded an approximate date.

Conflicting information is sourced for both with a note in each citation that indicated which one said what! That in my estimation is the right way to do it!
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.

Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 4 days ago #10

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Rola said:

GEDCOM has some problems, the definition is old, but we do not have something better. :-)

GEDCOM does have problems but this case is not because it is "Old", it is because the designers did not finish the normalization process in their design. I would have (and still want) to see PLAC become a record type of its own. This would solve the problem of historic information about places, reuse of data (location polygons, notes/information about the place, names within history) . So in this case I reject the notion of "Age" being the problem, the design is old in some other ways but not here!
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.

Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 4 days ago #11

  • trejder
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Thank you for all your enlightning comments. I agree with norwegian_sardines that not having PLAC as 0-level item is surely one of the biggest challenges of GEDCOM, at least among those that I faced. Data duplication here is sometimes huge.

I have a part of my tree where 10-15 persons are buried in exactly the same place and have to repeat data (address, location, phone etc.) for each and every individual's DEAT (or actually BURI) element. Having PLAC a separate entity would surely allow data reuse here.

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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 4 days ago #12

  • bertkoor
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trejder wrote: I have a part of my tree where 10-15 persons are buried in exactly the same place and have to repeat data (address, location, phone etc.) for each and every individual's DEAT (or actually BURI) element.


Now here I see a big bonus in using a shared note. Do record the PLAC, but refer to the shared note with more details.
Or if there is an actual source (church burial records, find-a-grave online) then make a source and put the common details there.

NB: you record little details like the telephone number of a graveyard?? ;-)
stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13

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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 4 days ago #13

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> you record little details like the telephone number of a graveyard?? ;-)

Yes! :D But only for these graveyards (and other placed) that I heard of, but never visited in person. This is for me to be able to contact authorities of that place (planned in future) to schedule meeting for "browsing" some books, records etc. Comes handy in some situations.

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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 4 days ago #14

  • norwegian_sardines
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Bert said:

Now here I see a big bonus in using a shared note. Do record the PLAC, but refer to the shared note with more details

And this is what I use shared notes for almost exclusively. Place information, historic maps, place name changes. My only problem is the pictures are not sized correctly.
Ken

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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 4 days ago #15

  • ric2015
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norwegian_sardines wrote: I would have (and still want) to see PLAC become a record type of its own. This would solve the problem of historic information about places, reuse of data (location polygons, notes/information about the place, names within history)


As Ladislav pointed out, all of this is already available via the _LOC records defined in the GEDCOM-L agreements, an extension of the GEDCOM standard which is already supported by various applications. If you use shared notes in webtrees, which isn't official GEDCOM either, what keeps you from using shared places as well?

(I don't like to advertise my custom modules all the time, but the impression that there is no solution for this available right now isn't helpful either)
Richard

webtrees 2.0.6 at cissee.de/webtrees2
Vesta custom modules (Classic Look & Feel, Gov4Webtrees, Shared Places, Extended Relationships) available at cissee.de

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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 4 days ago #16

  • norwegian_sardines
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I don’t like _LOC because it does not support every location in my database and it is not in my database. Sorry!
Ken

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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 4 days ago #17

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Ric2015 said:

If you use shared notes in webtrees, which isn't official GEDCOM either, what keeps you from using shared places as well

You are wrong sir, Shared Notes are a top level GEDCOM record just like individual and family! Look it up in the Standard!
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.

Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 4 days ago #18

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norwegian_sardines wrote: Shared Notes are a top level GEDCOM record just like individual and family!


You're right, of course! I have misunderstood Greg in the other thread .

I still don't understand your other points. Yes, if you don't use _LOC records, they won't be part of your GEDCOM, obviously. Do you mean you miss something like a data fix that turns existing locations into _LOC records?
Richard

webtrees 2.0.6 at cissee.de/webtrees2
Vesta custom modules (Classic Look & Feel, Gov4Webtrees, Shared Places, Extended Relationships) available at cissee.de

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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 4 days ago #19

  • norwegian_sardines
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Where would these locations be held? If on an offsite database, no thanks. I would not want place information for my living family to be shared and used globally. I also would not want to depend on a database to always exist to feed my data. I use webtrees because I can own the data myself. Don’t get me wrong _LOC has benefits of crowdsourced data and that has some advantages, but if I could download the data to my database, modify the history text and associated information to my liking I may be convinced to use the information.
Ken

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Add other facts / tags / items to a shared note or place 1 week 4 days ago #20

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norwegian_sardines wrote: _LOC has benefits of crowdsourced data


That's not what this is about - Maybe you are you mixing it up with web-based gazetteer databases in general (such as GOV ?)

_LOC records are part of your GEDCOM, just like any other top-level records. You don't share them, and it's up to you what source to use for them. See the specification here .

norwegian_sardines wrote: if I could download the data to my database, modify the history text and associated information to my liking I may be convinced to use the information.


That's a bit more complicated, but could be supported as well. I don't see it as the primary use case (you cannot download a partial family tree into webtrees either), but the _LOC specification definitely allows to model (historic) place hierarchies including additional information. Currently, you'd have to do this manually, though.
Richard

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