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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #1

  • guidovanharten
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How do I see the details of the witnesses at our wedding?
I can't find it on my page nor on my wife's page. On the page of one of the witnesses I read that he was best_man on our wedding.

Best regards,
Guido

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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #2

  • thomas52
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You can add an associate (or several) to your marriage, such as:

1 MARR
2 DATE EST 1945
2 PLAC Colorado, USA
2 _ASSO @I001@
3 RELA witness

"Failure is an amazing teacher." (L'échec est un professeur extraordinaire.)

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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #3

  • bertkoor
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Coded as above is the only correct way to record the official witnesses at a marriage. Maybe ASSO without underscore, I'd have to check that.

Usually the question is reversed: you can see witnesses in the marriage record, but on the page of the witness itself it's not visible.
Answer: tick the box "Show events of Close Relatives"

So this begs the question: how was the witness of marriage recorded on that persons record?

So what I sometimes do is to record an occupation or residence on the witnesses page (any fact will do) with the marriage being the Source, and a short note he was the best man.
stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13

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Last edit: by bertkoor.

witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #4

  • guidovanharten
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My gedcom doesn't have _ASSO at my wedding.
In gedcom 5.5.1 ASSO is a genuine tag.
The witnesses have in their record:
1 ASSO @I24517@
2 RELA best_man
maybe it is better to give:
1 ASSO @F43953@
2 RELA best_man

(I24517 and F43953 belongs to me).

So, I tried to edit my record:
0 @F43953@ FAM
1 HUSB @I24517@
1 MARR
2 DATE 16 FEB 2004
2 PLAC Amersfoort
2 SOUR @S1@
2 TYPE civil
2 ASSO @I25372@
3 RELA best_man

It looks like this is working well.

Best regards,
Guido

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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #5

  • norwegian_sardines
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Guido,

The GEDCOM 5.5.1 standard says:

The association pointer only associates INDIvidual records to INDIvidual records.

Thus.. The standard says that the only valid way to use the ASSO tag is:

0 @I3@ INDI
1 NAME Joe/Williams/
1 SEX M
1 BIRT
2 DATE 11 JUN 1861
2 PLAC Idaho Falls, Bonneville, Idaho
1 ASSO @I5@
2 RELA best man
2 ...
1 ...

Where "1 ASSO @I5@" is a pointer to another INDIvidual and immediately subordinate to the INDI tag

On the other hand....

webtrees has added for your benefit that ability to add associations to events and as per the GEDCOM Standard with a "NEW_TAG" identified as "_ASSO" and can be placed immediately subordinate to Event/Attribute (fact) tags which needs an associative relationship.

Thus Thomas' example is correct.

You can add an associate (or several) to your marriage, such as:

1 MARR
2 DATE EST 1945
2 PLAC Colorado, USA
2 _ASSO @I001@
3 RELA witness


Bert.... At one time webtrees also supported ASSO and I think because that construct actually violates GEDCOM the _ASSO was added, but I think support for ASSO is still in the code. I'm not a fan of "_" custom tags but in this case I'm willing to let it go to move the program in the right direction. In the future I hope that the use of ASSO tags subordinate to "facts" is removed from the code and the only place it is valid is as described in the GEDCOM standard immediately subordinate to the INDI tag. With the option to use _ASSO subordinate to "facts".
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.

witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #6

  • fisharebest
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> I'm not a fan of "_" custom tags but in this case I'm willing to let it go to move the program in the right direction.

Are there any other non-standard tags that you think should be included?
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #7

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[quote="fisharebest" post=78669Are there any other non-standard tags that you think should be included?[/quote]

My former family tree program (Aldfaer) had also
_ALDFAER_WEIGHT (weight at born)
_ALDFAER_LENGTH (length at born)

I don't remember other custom tags; maybe later...

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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #8

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In 2.1, there will be two types of support for custom tags.

1) displaying existing data.
2) allowing you to add new fields.

For both, it is necessary to know exactly how custom tags are used.

e.g. is it

1 BIRT
2 _ALDFAER_WEIGHT

or

1 BIRT
1 _ALDFAER_WEIGHT
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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #9

  • thomas52
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_CEME, _NMR, _NMAR, _MILI, _TODO, _QUAY,
"Failure is an amazing teacher." (L'échec est un professeur extraordinaire.)

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Last edit: by thomas52.

witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #10

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fisharebest wrote: > I'm not a fan of "_" custom tags but in this case I'm willing to let it go to move the program in the right direction.

Are there any other non-standard tags that you think should be included?


_TODO?
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #11

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_ALDFAER_WEIGHT and _ALDFAER_LENGTH are subordinate to BIRT, so a prefix 2 is needed.
(of course the prefix ALDFAER is related to that application - www.aldfaer.net -, so I think of course you do not use that prefix in the tag :D)

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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #12

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They are also subordinate to DEAT

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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #13

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The Aldfaer tags for weight and length at birth has an official alternative: DSCR (physical description)
Too bad LEN was dropped in Gedcom 5.0, but personally I'd put rare facts like this in a NOTE or citation details or transcription of the source (here probably being the birth card)

Associations are very valuable to put subordinate to facts & events. I would not want to miss them. Examples:

* Baptism - link to godparents, witnesses.
* Birth, death, marriage - link to those reporting at city hall (witness)
* Occupation - link to the employer or employees.
* Property - link to seller and buyer (think of houses, plenty of archive material available)
* Title - link to precessor & successor. Would be nice, currently not possible.
stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13

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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #14

  • norwegian_sardines
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I would vote NO to:
_ALDFAER_WEIGHT (weight at born)
_ALDFAER_LENGTH (length at born)

This would be satisfied by:
1 DSCR Weight: xxx, Length: xxx
2 TYPE birth
2 AGE 0y 1d

This use is written up in the GEDCOM 5.5.1 standard as:
PHYSICAL_DESCRIPTION:= {Size=1:248}
An unstructured list of the attributes that describe the physical characteristics of a person, place, or object. Commas separate each attribute.

Example:
1 DSCR Hair Brown, Eyes Brown, Height 5 ft 8 in
2 DATE 23 JUL 1935

I used the AGE and TYPE tags so that readers don't have to determine when the description was from were DATE is less descriptive.

NOTE: While not written in the GEDCOM standard the AGE tag could include additional parameter (beyond the already available {CHILD, INFANT, STILLBORN}) to include {BIRTH, DEATH} since these are known dates/times for the given person.
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.

witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #15

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I vote NO for _CEME

This would be satisfied by:
1 BURI
2 PLAC {cemetery name}, {additional place detail}

I vote NO for _MILI

If this is a fact for "Military", this is much more appropriate using the standard fact:
1 FACT
2 TYPE military
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines. Reason: Changed DEAT to BURI. Thanks Bert

witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #16

  • fisharebest
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Hi Ken,

In 2.1, the GEDCOM 5.5.1 tags will be handled by the core code.

All other tags will be handled by modules.

So, there is a module called "CustomTagsAldfaer".
If you are editing in Aldfaer, and using webtrees for display, then enable the module.
Otherwise, leave it disabled and you will never see these tags.

I have very little information for Aldfaer. So far, it only defines a few tags:
github.com/fisharebest/webtrees/blob/dev...ustomTagsAldfaer.php

Others are better documented. e.g. Legacy
github.com/fisharebest/webtrees/blob/dev...CustomTagsLegacy.php

I am still researching all the custom tags that we currently use, to find out exactly where/how they are created.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #17

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Greg,

I understand that other programs use these "_" tags, some more appropriately than others.

It seams by your statement that you are moving away from "always display imported tags regardless of them being valid or not." If this is true then I guess my value to this group for helping people to understand how to use GEDCOM is diminished.

BUT if you are not moving away from this statement, for admin who only use webtrees to display on the web the imported GEDCOM will still show these tags regardless of our having a module.

My issue with all "_" tags is that if you do your data entry in webtrees but receive a GEDCOM from someone who has no clue how to use GEDCOM, admins may be encouraged to move away from GEDCOM and use the crutch of "_" when other more valid GEDCOM tags are available. This bothers me since an important reason for me to use webtrees was the better adherence to GEDCOM.

This of course is my opinion and everyone here is more than welcome to tell me I'm an idiot for thinking that way. Just so long as I can easily not include any "_" tags (I can't say I have any) I don't use _ASSO but see that it could be important for some. I can't remember if I use "Never Married" (_NMAR) or not, but it is less important to me so I can lose it without harm.

UPDATE:
This will also make writing a report generator more difficult since these "_" values may not be know to the reporting program. Also the creators of these programs may add new "_" tags and not tell anyone or the code may not get added to the module.
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.

witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #18

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Greg,

I just looked at the Legacy custom tags. Are you proposing that webtrees support printing, sentence definition, codes for No Children, child->father relationships?

Much of this information is either things that should be hidden in the database, or can be calculated. What would you do with this stuff. For example printing or display information. Will the next think webtree users ask for is to have webtrees support using the information in running reports or laying out screens, or coloring the screen differently. I know that RM7 includes grouping information in their GEDCOM where color means something. Will webtrees become RM7, Legacy, TNG, et el. I'm just asking because I see this in my crystal ball ;-)
Ken

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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #19

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> Are you proposing that webtrees support printing, sentence definition, codes for No Children, child->father relationships?
> What would you do with this stuff.

Mostly, we will just display it with suitable labels. Nothing more.

If a Legacy user has created "0 FAM / 1 _NONE Y", then the "Legacy compatibility module" will allow webtrees to display: "Childless: yes" - instead of "_NONE: Y".

It is about making users feel comfortable to migrate from other applications to webtrees.

If we have a visible "Legacy compatibility module" and we can display all their data, then they will be confident to move.
If we show lots of red error messages for unrecognised tags, they may go straight back to Legacy and stay there forever...

Of course, once they start to use webtrees, they may ask why they need to enter "1 NCHI 0" instead of "1 _NONE Y".
Next, they might want to learn about GEDCOM standards and clean up their data.

We can provide tools to help them do that.
For example, the next release (2.0.7) has a new tool to convert _MARNM and similar tags into NAME/TYPE.
Expect more of these tools to follow.

> Just so long as I can easily not include any "_" tags

You will be able to disable all these modules, and use only the standard GEDCOM tags and structures.
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witness (best_man) 1 week 1 day ago #20

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norwegian_sardines wrote: I vote NO for _CEME

This would be satisfied by:
1 DEAT
2 PLAC {cemetery name}, {additional place detail}


I think you meant "1 BURI / 2 PLAC ...", since the place of death unlikely was the cemetery.
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Last edit: by bertkoor.
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