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Individuals without death dates considered alive 2 weeks 1 day ago #1

  • superhappybunnycat
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I have my privacy restrictions to show living people to members only. Only problem is I only enter the death year when I am reasonably certain of its accuracy. It means anyone without one gets listed as private.

Is there anyway to prevent this without putting in a dummy date of death?

This might even be a feature request - something similar to ancestry would be great where you can mark someone as deceased without having to enter when they died

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 2 weeks 1 day ago #2

  • norwegian_sardines
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Have you tried marking a person as dead?

Create a Death Fact and make sure that the checkbox is set on.
Ken

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 2 weeks 1 day ago #3

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That solved the problem perfectly, thank you!

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 2 weeks 1 day ago #4

  • bertkoor
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On the Control Panel under Privacy there is a setting called "Age at which to assume an individual is dead". Using that should also solve this problem. But it should already be filled by default, so it's a bit of a mystery to me how/why you ran into this problem.

There is however a small issue with that setting: the statistics block does not obey it and will put persons without a death record in the "longest living" stats even though they are assumed to be long dead. But this type of individuals should be public nontheless.
stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 5 days ago #5

This is a frustrating issue. I only discovered this after building a tree of over one thousand individuals. Without a birth, baptism or death date, unless you check the (unchecked by default) death box, the person is displayed as private to visitors (although it's not 100% consistent). I'm having to make my way through hundreds of records adding an undated death record with the box checked. I can understand the reasoning behind it and I'm not sure what the solution is other than educating new users. Perhaps something like the "Estimated dates for birth and death" setting in the family trees preferences could be made to check against parents ages for obvious parameters.

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 5 days ago #6

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Or I think you can run the “add missing death record” data fix in the admin section. I think this will do this for you.
Ken

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 5 days ago #7

  • bertkoor
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The batch fix "add missing death records" will certainly help.

I you have persons without any date at all, that will be problematic. Webtrees will try to guesstimate whether that person is dead or alive, based on dates found on the direct relatives: parents, children, partners. So if those persons also don't have any dates, I think it stops right there and webtrees decides to take the safer option and considers that individual still alive!

Lesson learned: I personally ALWAYS record at least an estimated date of birth (eg "EST 1806"), or a marriage date eg "BEF 1831" because I cannot stand myself being thrown in the dark completely when anyone was alive. It makes my own research quite difficult. GEDCOM date fields are quite flexible and do accept qualifiers like "CAL MAY 1806" (calculated back to about May 1806) so use them.

So I have some simple rules: parents are estimated to be 25 years old when a first child is born. When adding a partner of which I know nothing but the name, I put in an estimated year of birth the same as the partner. Yes, it might be off by a decade (or two) but it's much MUCH better than not even knowing what century it was that person lived in. Or having to look at all kinds of circumstantial evidence to guesstimate it again. Why not do that once (and put in a _TODO tag: not forget looking that up) and record it.

This way webtrees also knows when a person was alive without looking at other persons dates, and will be much better at indicating alive or dead.
stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13

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Last edit: by bertkoor.

Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 5 days ago #8

  • fisharebest
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> Perhaps something like the "Estimated dates for birth and death" setting in the family trees preferences could be made to check against parents ages for obvious parameters.

We already do this.

We check spouses, parents, children and grandchildren for date differences.

> The batch fix "add missing death records" will certainly help.

This will help *performance*, but will not change the logic.

It uses the same logic that we use to calculate privacy.

It just means that if we find a sufficently old date in one of the relative's records, then we can record "Death: yes", and we won't need to make these checks again.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 5 days ago #9

>We check spouses, parents, children and grandchildren for date differences.

Ah that might explain some of the apparently inconsistent results but I still see examples of private individuals with siblings born one for example in 1694. "add missing death records" is one of 9 data fixes enabled by default so that should be working I think. The fact that this has been considered is at least hopeful but is it working properly?
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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 5 days ago #10

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> but I still see examples of private individuals with siblings born one for example in 1694

We don't check dates for siblings.
Just parents, spouses, children, grandchildren.

Yes - we could check siblings, nephews, and many other relatives.
But there would be a performance impact, as each extra individual must be fetched from the database.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 5 days ago #11

Sorry, I thought children meant fixing other children of the family.

Adding siblings to the check would pretty much do it. But I assume the checks must be done each time Webtrees loads for performance to be an issue.

I have found a workaround to adding death dates to every wrongfully private record - adding an abt. death date to a parent "fixes" all the children.

Thanks for clarifying how this works.

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 5 days ago #12

  • bertkoor
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photon flip wrote: "add missing death records" is one of 9 data fixes enabled by default so that should be working I think.


Maybe this is just a misunderstanding on my side caused by bad wording.
"Enabling" just makes that module available. That puts it in the list of data fixes you may execute.
You still need to go to the Control Panel and explicitly execute it in order to have any effect on your data.
stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 4 days ago #13

berkoor > "Maybe this is just a misunderstanding on my side caused by bad wording."

No it was me. I hadn't realized that the enabled data fixes needed to be executed from the Manage Family Tree dialogue - duh. So I've been talking at crossed purposes at times.


berkoor > The batch fix "add missing death records" will certainly help.

Yes it helps - the search and update dialogue is a welcome time saver for my situation. Although I would have thought that an undated death record with the "tick of death" should be emphatic enough to override the privacy calculations but apparently not in some circumstances. If that's by design because of privacy concerns then fair enough I guess - I'll have to "live" with it.

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 4 days ago #14

  • fisharebest
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> Although I would have thought that an undated death record with the "tick of death" should be emphatic enough to override the privacy calculations

The "tick of death" should be sufficient.

> but apparently not in some circumstances.

What circumstances? Do you have an example?
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 4 days ago #15

webtrees 2.0.7
php 7.4

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 4 days ago #16

  • fisharebest
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A family record is private if any of the individuals (parents and children) are private.

I cannot see your data, but perhaps this family is private because some of the children are still living (have no death record).
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 4 days ago #17

Il n'y a pas d'individus privés à cette époque.
Les petits-enfants du personnage central sont soit décédés officiellement, soit décédés sans date ni lieu grâce au traitement de corrections des données. Idem pour leurs parents (enfants du personnage central). C'est OK.
En revanche le personnage central s'est marié en 1642. Ses parents ne devraient pas être "privés".
Est-il possible que le temps de traitement de corrections des données influencent le résultat ?

GT:
There are no private individuals at this time.
The grandchildren of the central figure are either officially deceased or died without a date or place thanks to the processing of data corrections. Ditto for their parents (children of the central figure). It's OK.
On the other hand, the central figure married in 1642. His parents should not be "private".
Is it possible that the processing time of data corrections influence the result?
webtrees 2.0.7
php 7.4

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 4 days ago #18

  • fisharebest
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It is always difficult to guess, because the answers will depend on data that I cannot see...

The family record of the parents is private:

phicome.eu/tree/cappe/family/F1492/Private-Private

Usually, this means that one of the family members (parents and children) is private.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 3 days ago #19

>The "tick of death" should be sufficient.

Ok, after running the "add missing death records" batch fix that updated over 500 out of 1086 records, I'm now convinced that the tick of death is sufficient for each individual.

However after the full fix I'm still left with a lot of individuals displayed as private that very obviously shouldn't be. The majority of those are siblings whose parents are dead and their grandchildren are dead.

I seems to be because the data fix uses the isDead() function which, when no conclusive record or date is found, looks for dates only (not ticks) of parents, spouses, children, grandchildren, to check if a record needs updating.

In my screenshot it seems that the death date of Isabel Rosa Jackson has been used to mark her parents, John and Rosa. And Elizabeth Warren to mark her daughter Susanna but the siblings of John Jackson have "cheated death" so to speak. I have many other examples like this.

Am I correct that the performance problems would come about for the main program if the isDead() function had to check siblings?
The "add missing death records" is only used infrequently and seems to work very fast on 1086 records - so couldn't it's "doesRecordNeedUpdate()" function be extended to include siblings? It would then pretty much do what it says on the box.
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Last edit: by photon flip.

Individuals without death dates considered alive 1 week 3 days ago #20

  • bertkoor
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So what if you run that datafix again?
Because by itself it doesn't have a domino effect (which in your case is required)
stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13

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