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Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 1 day ago #21

  • fisharebest
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Nicknames are sometimes used only by the immediate family.
These should not be added to the public name.

Some nicknames are often diminutives of a given name. These are usually placed after the corresponding given name.
e.g. Henrik "Henk" Martin /Schmidt/

Some people have nicknames without a surname
e.g. Alexander "The Great"

There are so many variations that it is impossible to "automatically" insert nicknames into full names.

The only reliable way is for the user to insert it in the correct place.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 1 day ago #22

This could be solved by making it a visitor setting.
Just like language.

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Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 1 day ago #23

Make 1 of the options 'automatic' and handle things like it is handled now. This is the default, and can be set by the administrator.
The other options override the default.
It looks to me a bit like how 'language' is handled.

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Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 1 day ago #24

> The only reliable way is for the user to insert it in the correct place.
Sure, that is true, but they still can do that ...

> Alexander "The Great"
Just leave the surname empty.

> Henrik "Henk" Martin /Schmidt/
Do not use a nickname and insert it in the given names.

I mean, if NICK is used make it possible to :
- do it like is is now, this is default.
- or choose a 'full name pattern' to override the default.

:)

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Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 1 day ago #25

  • norwegian_sardines
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Aderksen said:

> Alexander "The Great"
Just leave the surname empty.

The surname is empty, but how does code place nicknames before the surname when one has not been entered?

> Henrik "Henk" Martin /Schmidt/
Do not use a nickname and insert it in the given names.

therefore the logic is; when the nickname is a diminutive of the given name place the nick name after the given name but when it is not a diminutive place it before the surname! Or should the code ignore the nick name when it is a diminutive, forcing the user to key the nick name in themselves?

The answer as suggested by me is to not enter a nickname in the NICK tag and enter a new NAME tag with the nickname and surname and a TYPE tag of “nickname” or “AKA”. ( I prefer. “AKA”).

I have plenty of relatives that did not have a surname but had either diminutive nick names or in some cases used a middle name as their preferred (or “call”) name. I create two NAME tags 1) with their birth name, 2) AKA name
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.

Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 1 day ago #26

> The surname is empty, but how does code place nicknames before the surname when one has not been entered?

In PHP:
'Alexander' . '"The Great"' . ''
In this case, '"The Great"' comes before the surname which is empty string ''.


The problem is, I have a family tree with almost 75000 individuals, with names based on GIVN NICK SURN.
I want the full name always in that format, wherever the full name is displayed.
I have always used 1 NAME tag per individual, other names are always in _AKA, never had a problem with that.

Well, I guess I have to stick with my modification of Individuals.php.
I'm not really a fan of extra add-on tools.

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Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 1 day ago #27

  • norwegian_sardines
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I understand the problem with that many names and how you want them displayed. I’ve been doing genealogy since the 1980s and used a lot of different programs, and over that time I’ve have to convert a lot of individuals to various conventions until I came to webtrees.

I’m also a programmer so I wrote a bunch of little programs that did mass updates in the GEDCOM to implement those conventions.

You seem to be computer oriented, maybe you can write code that reads in line by line a GEDCOM file and extracts the NAME tag and the NICK tag and rewrites the NAME with the NICK imbedded into it where you want, (rewrite all other line without change), then reload the GEDCOM into webtrees.

I did a lot of that early on to set tags the way I wanted them fixing the bad tags that other programs created before I started using v5.5.1 compliant webtrees. I’ll probably write more of these to use new features when GEDCOM v7.0 comes out ;-)
Ken

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Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 1 day ago #28

I understand your solution, and I am capable of doing such thing.
But from a software developer's view this should not be the way to do it.
The whole idea of splitting names into nameparts is that you are fully flexible in displaying name in any format you want.
I introduced this with several employers I worked for in the past.

And then, if after that I enter new individuals in webtrees, I have to enter nickname twice. Once in NICK field, and once in NAME field.

I still need the separate NICK because I have written software (in C#.NET) to create large tree posters based on the exported gedcom from the website. I need those nameparts there for the mentioned flexibility. In this application I also had to read and parse the gedcom.

For me now I think the most quick solution is the (only 2 lines) code modifying in Individuals.php as I showed a few posts back.
I only have to be awake :) with webtrees updates.

And hoping that you will consider some sort of (configurable ?) solution for this in the future ... :)

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Last edit: by aderksen.

Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 21 hours ago #29

  • fisharebest
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> The whole idea of splitting names into nameparts is that you are fully flexible in displaying name in any format you want.

Actually, no it is not.

According to the GEDCOM standards, the NAME record is the full/display name, and the GIVN/SURN/etc. parts are to be used for indexing, sorting, etc.

You cannot create a name by assembling the parts.

A simple example is inflected surnames - where the surname takes a different ending for male and female. So, you might have a woman with an inflected surname in her NAME record, but a base/uninflected surname in the SURN record:

1 NAME Petra /Nowikowska/
2 GIVN Petra
2 SURN Nowikowski

Another example might be a Spanish name with two surnames separated by a particle. Here, the SURN field contains a comma separated list. e.g.

1 NAME Pablo Diego /Ruiz/ y /Picasso/
2 GIVN Pable Diego
2 SURN Ruiz,Picasso

Note that this is not a hyphenated ("double-barrelled") surname that is common in the UK and US. These are two separate surnames.

Then, of course, you have individuals without a surname. For example, Icelandic names use patronyms - which don't have a name-part, and which would only have a given name subtag.

1 NAME Anders Eriksson
2 GIVN Anders

If his nickname was "Andy", then you'd probably want to insert it between the given name and the patronym.

> I introduced this with several employers I worked for in the past.

Assembling names from name-parts may have worked for the subset of humanity that worked for these companies, but cannot be done universally.

> For me now I think the most quick solution is the (only 2 lines) code modifying in Individuals.php as I showed a few posts back.

If this change works for your data, then go ahead. This is the advantage of open-source code.
You are both allowed and encouraged to modify it to suit your needs.

But webtrees aims to follow the GEDCOM standard. On page 38 it says quite explicitly:

"all systems must construct their names based on the <NAME_PERSONAL> structure."

i.e. from the NAME field.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 19 hours ago #30

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> For me now I think the most quick solution is the (only 2 lines) code modifying in Individuals.php as I showed a few posts back.
> I only have to be awake :) with webtrees updates.

Depending on your PHP coding skills, you can create a simple module to do this for you - so you won't have to patch the code after every update.

There are documentation and examples for creating modules in modules_v4/README.md

1) Wait for the next release! (I've just made some changes which will enable the following...)

2) Create a new class "MyIndividual", which extends Individual, and replaces the addName() function with your modified version.

3) Create a new class "MyIndividualFactory", which extends IndividualFactory, and replaces the new() function with one that creates MyIndividual object instead of an Individual.
return new MyIndividual();

4) Create a module with a boot() method, which registers your factory like this
public function boot() {
Registry::individualFactory(new MyIndividualFactory());
}

Now, with this module in place, you'll only have to update your code if the Individual::addName() function changes - and I don't expect changes any time soon.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 19 hours ago #31

I guess GEDCOM uses different definitions for names and nameparts as normal administrative systems and I am not that strict in entering names for mentioned special cases.

1 NAME Petra /Nowikowska/
2 GIVN Petra
2 SURN Nowikowski
becomes with me:
1 NAME Petra /Nowikowska/
2 GIVN Petra
2 SURN Nowikowska
Eventual nickname comes before Nowikowska

1 NAME Pablo Diego /Ruiz/ y /Picasso/
2 GIVN Pable Diego
2 SURN Ruiz,Picasso
becomes with me:
1 NAME Pablo Diego /Ruiz y Picasso/
2 GIVN Pable Diego
2 SURN Ruiz y Picasso
Eventual nickname comes before Ruiz y Picasso


1 NAME Anders Eriksson
2 GIVN Anders
becomes with me:
1 NAME Anders Eriksson
2 GIVN Anders
Eventual nickname comes before the empty surname and thus after Eriksson ...
But actually, if there is a patronym and no surname, I use the patronym as surname.
.
It is all about GIVN NICK SURN format, no exceptions. Even if 1 or more of the values are empty.

But it is OK, if webtrees aim is the exact GEDCOM standard and it is a good thing that there are standards.
I just like a little bit of additional display freedom on top of these default GEDCOM prescriptions.
I do not want to be a slave of GEDCOM. Genealogy is a hobby, not exact mathematics.

But despite our different views on this subject, I still think ... Webtrees ROCKS !!!

:)

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Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 18 hours ago #32

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Aderksen said:
1 NAME Pablo Diego /Ruiz/ y /Picasso/
2 GIVN Pable Diego
2 SURN Ruiz,Picasso
becomes with me:
1 NAME Pablo Diego /Ruiz y Picasso/
2 GIVN Pable Diego
2 SURN Ruiz y Picasso
Obviously your interpretation of this surname is wrong for indexing of surnames in many cultures. One of the things that most software program, other than webtrees, do wrong is that they are not multi-cultural, which leads to poor documentation and in some cases blunders in etiquette or hostility amount family members. You may not care, nor may your family but other genealogist do care to set things correctly when they are of that culture and webtrees must honor those requirement.

The same goes for the other examples Greg provided.

My family, prior to 1924, had many members that never had surnames. They would be called, for example: Jarl Bruflot Olsen Naustdal, Jarl = Given name, Bruflot = Middle name, Olsen/Olssen is his patronymic name (son of Ole), and Naustdal is the Farm he currently resides at. None of these names are a surname, when a descendent was required by law to take a surname they took various surnames.

Aderksen said:

I guess GEDCOM uses different definitions for names and nameparts as normal administrative systems and I am not that strict in entering names for mentioned special cases.

These are not special case, and are examples of cultures that do things differently than in the US or UK. Also just like any network or relational database structure, not all values are used for data rather they are used for indexing and sorting such is the case with name parts in GEDCOM, some genealogy software does not care about these tag/fields and they are dropped from import. In these cases your NICK tag would be lost on import if not added directly into the NAME tag.

Greg has given you a future enhancement that will give you more control over your data, at present you can use the Vesta add-on to give you what you want as well.


Finally, aderksen said:

I do not want to be a slave of GEDCOM. Genealogy is a hobby, not exact mathematics.

. Understanding how different cultures name people and learning how these names are used is very much a part of this hobby and has nothing to do with being “a slave to GEDCOM”. I’ve learned a lot about name usage in the 40 odd years doing genealogy, first as a hobby then getting paid to help research and teach. Learning about people, their history and the different ways they do things is every bit a part of the genealogy process!
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.

Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 16 hours ago #33

Of course it is good that webtrees offers the possibility to set things correctly and precise. I encourage that very much.
I do not use everything of that. For me it is enough that fullnames look right. In the example both ways display like Pablo Diego Ruiz y Picasso.

Now it is not even possible to set the name Jarl Bruflot Olsen Naustdal correctly in GEDCOM.
GEDCOM offers no middlenames en patronyms. So GEDCOM is not ideal either.
There is no ideal, people can go deep and precise or people can go more shallow.
Webtrees offers possibilties for all and I absolutely encourage that.

And sure, splitting up names in nameparts is also usable for sorting and indexing, but certainly also for displaying names in different orders, I have used that many times.

If software does not care about important GEDCOM tags and drops them, I do not use that software.

GEDCOM is not ideal, and so it's prescriptions are not ideal. There are many discussions on the internet about that.
It does not cover all cultural name differences. Sometimes you have to trick things.
If I have to work exactly according to GEDCOM's prescriptions, then I feel like a slave to GEDCOM.
To me GEDCOM is just a database.
I think that a little additional freedom must be possible.

Studying cultures ... OK. Studying name usage ... OK. Studying family relations ... OK. I do it all too.

But all I want is a possibility to display a nickname (if filled) somewhere in the fullname, a feature that webtrees always had itself.
The discussion goes way too deep here, that was not my intention.

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Why nickname no more visible? 4 weeks 13 hours ago #34

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Aderksen said:

And sure, splitting up names in nameparts is also usable for sorting and indexing, but certainly also for displaying names in different orders, I have used that many times.

No, display names is not supported by GEDCOM using the name parts, if you want to display surname only or surname before “given names” that can be accomplished directly from the NAME tag, you would not use the name-parts tags.

You also stated:

Now it is not even possible to set the name Jarl Bruflot Olsen Naustdal correctly in GEDCOM.

It is very easy to to set this in GEDCOM:
1 NAME Jarl Bruflot Olsen Naustdal
Nothing more is needed.

Yes GEDCOM is not perfect, I’ll be the first to say that, but many of the discussions on the internet about its imperfections are based on lack of knowledge about its use, not the issues that it truly has. GEDCOM was created as a way to transfer LDS data from LDS members to a now defunct LDS database called “Ancestral File”. GEDCOM was never meant to be a “database” it was a tool to transfer data about people and their relationships from the submitter to the LDS database.

You said:

I think that a little additional freedom must be possible.

In the next release of webtrees you are free to add additional tags if you want, and with a module you write you can do whatever you want with names as noted by Greg.

I think this discussion has gone as far as it can.

You can do what ever you want with GEDCOM, no skin off my nose, you can write your own code in webtrees to make the software do what you want, as an “open source” program you can fork to your own version, some have done that already. Use the Vesta extension that does this already or not your call. Use the module approach to add-on code, or not, your call. So have fun, I’m moving on!
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.
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