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Witness events in tab "Facts and events" - possible? 2 weeks 1 day ago #1

  • Bryld
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In my desktop app, events appear in my focus person's event-timeline, even if the person is not primary to the event but just a witness.

E.g.: Children in a household are just witnesses to my census events.
It would be very nice, if these census events appeared on the childrens' "Facts and events"-tabs as well as on their parents's.

Is that not currently possible, or have I overlooked a setting somewhere?

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Witness events in tab "Facts and events" - possible? 2 weeks 1 day ago #2

  • fisharebest
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Witnesses are created as "associates".

For example, visit this page, and click the "show events of close relatives".

This will show the baptism of Queen Elizabeth. (He was an associate to this event).
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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Witness events in tab "Facts and events" - possible? 2 weeks 23 hours ago #3

  • Bryld
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Thanks for the answer - but I think you might have forgotten a link somewhere :-)

I have located my disappearing events and in the process found out that ASSO and _WITN tags are handled differently by Webtrees, hence some of my confusion.

When using PhpGedView 5 years ago, I always did a Search & Replace on my GEDCOM's _WITN and _ROLE tags changing them to ASSO and RELA tags. Otherwise, PhpGedView didn't recognise them. When I learned that Webtrees could handle _WITN tags, I stopped this, but mistakenly expected them to behave just like ASSO tags.

Usually, when I accuse Webtrees of having changed behaviour, I probably confuse Webtrees with PhpGedView, which I used for many years previously.

With that in mind, I would like to officially propose that events to which a person is associated be moved from the "close relatives" events to the person's own events.

That is how I believe PhpGedView handled associated events and (especially pertaining census events) that made a lot of sense to me.

I would like to hear any objections, though, before making a feature request over at GitHub.


Another thing, I'd appreciate to learn is if _WITN and ASSO tags are handled differently by choice or by oversight. Same with _ROLE vs RELA tags.

In my understanding, those two tag-pairs should be considered synonyms.

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Witness events in tab "Facts and events" - possible? 2 weeks 22 hours ago #4

  • fisharebest
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> Another thing, I'd appreciate to learn is if _WITN and ASSO tags are handled differently by choice or by oversight.

This is by design. It is part of the GEDCOM-L extension (webtrees.net/downloads/gedcom-l.pdf).

_WITN and _GODP tags are just names, not links.

e.g.

1 MARR
2 _WITN Jane Smith

1 BAPM
2 _GODP Jane Smith

Even if Jane Smith exists in our database, there is no way to link this fact to her individual record.

In fact, this structure was created for the case when you only have the name of a witness/godparent, and they do not appear in your tree.

> my GEDCOM's _WITN and _ROLE tags

These are presumably custom tags created by your desktop genealogy application?
Which one?
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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Witness events in tab "Facts and events" - possible? 2 weeks 22 hours ago #5

  • Bryld
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fisharebest wrote: > Another thing, I'd appreciate to learn is if _WITN and ASSO tags are handled differently by choice or by oversight.

This is by design. It is part of the GEDCOM-L extension (webtrees.net/downloads/gedcom-l.pdf).

_WITN and _GODP tags are just names, not links.

e.g.

1 MARR
2 _WITN Jane Smith

1 BAPM
2 _GODP Jane Smith

Even if Jane Smith exists in our database, there is no way to link this fact to her individual record.

In fact, this structure was created for the case when you only have the name of a witness/godparent, and they do not appear in your tree.

> my GEDCOM's _WITN and _ROLE tags

These are presumably custom tags created by your desktop genealogy application?
Which one?


Ah, I see - thanks for spelling this out for me. I tend to get easily confused by specs-reading :-)

My main application is Genbox, and here witnesses are always part of the database. If I add a witness, a person by that name is created in my database. Yet, my witnesses get exported with _WITN + _ROLE tags rather than ASSO + RELA tags. If I don't want to add a witness as a person record in my database, then I'll have to put the name in a note, instead.

I assume more modern applications wil export correctly with ASSO/RELA tags, but I get by doing Search & Replace before uploading.

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Witness events in tab "Facts and events" - possible? 2 weeks 18 hours ago #6

  • norwegian_sardines
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Bryld,

Just to be clear in your understanding of GEDCOM v5.5.1 and the difference between "Standard" tags and "User Defined" tags.

The Association_Structure as defined by the v5.5.1 GEDCOM standard is as follows:
ASSOCIATION_STRUCTURE:=
n ASSO @<XREF:INDI>@
+1 RELA <RELATION_IS_DESCRIPTOR>
+1 <<SOURCE_CITATION>>
+1 <<NOTE_STRUCTURE>>
With the following note:

The association pointer only associates INDIvidual records to INDIvidual records.

Therefore the Association_Structure and the ASSO tag can only be used in a relationship from the individual record to another individual record and not in an event or attribute. So by extension the use of a ASSO tag within an event or attribute must become a "user defined" tag rather than a standard tag. All "user defined" tag must begin with an "_", therefore the correct implementation of the ASSO tag within an event/attribute would be as follows:
2 _ASSO @I10102@
3 RELA witness
3 NOTE A Note
This is the way you should convert any non-standard tag from your program to webtrees.
Ken

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Witness events in tab "Facts and events" - possible? 2 weeks 15 hours ago #7

  • Bryld
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norwegian_sardines wrote:

The association pointer only associates INDIvidual records to INDIvidual records.

Therefore the Association_Structure and the ASSO tag can only be used in a relationship from the individual record to another individual record and not in an event or attribute. So by extension the use of a ASSO tag within an event or attribute must become a "user defined" tag rather than a standard tag. All "user defined" tag must begin with an "_", therefore the correct implementation of the ASSO tag within an event/attribute would be as follows:
2 _ASSO @I10102@
3 RELA witness
3 NOTE A Note
This is the way you should convert any non-standard tag from your program to webtrees.


Thanks for that insight, but would Webtrees then still interpret an _ASSO tag just as its non_ equivalent ASSO akin to that Webtrees understands and parses the non-standard _WITN tag?

I'd like to follow standards (my desktop app doesn't always), but I'd hate to give up desired functionality just to follow standards.

Richard Cissée just kindly pointed me to the Vesta personal facts tab , which seems to be a must-install for my system.

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Witness events in tab "Facts and events" - possible? 2 weeks 14 hours ago #8

  • norwegian_sardines
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Bryld asked:

Thanks for that insight, but would Webtrees then still interpret an _ASSO tag just as its non_ equivalent ASSO akin to that Webtrees understands and parses the non-standard _WITN tag?

Because I've not independently loaded a GEDCOM into webtrees since my conversion from PhpGedView to webtrees many years ago, I can't answer this directly. webtrees generated the _ASSO structure I quoted when I added a "Witness" to my database via the user interface, so I would expect it to be able to import that structure into itself. If it did not others would have raised a question. Development had discussed in this forum the use conversion of all non-standard ASSO tags to _ASSO tags some time in the past.

I'm not sure what,

and parses the non-standard _WITN tag?

means specifically. So many programs generate invalid GEDCOM v 5.5.1 and/or don't follow any of the documented enhanced versions of GEDCOM (such as GEDCOM-L) that finding all of the "gotcha" non-standard tags has been a major project for development over the years. A future release of webtrees will support more non-standard tags, but it will be up to the site administrator to make sure that they are used correctly and support either regular GEDCOM loading or the Round Tripping Process, neither of which I do or fully recommend.
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.
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Witness events in tab "Facts and events" - possible? 2 weeks 13 hours ago #9

  • Bryld
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norwegian_sardines wrote: Bryld asked:

Thanks for that insight, but would Webtrees then still interpret an _ASSO tag just as its non_ equivalent ASSO akin to that Webtrees understands and parses the non-standard _WITN tag?

Because I've not independently loaded a GEDCOM into webtrees since my conversion from PhpGedView to webtrees many years ago, I can't answer this directly.


I just asked rather than having to test, if you had the answer ready.

Now, I've tested, and Webtrees parses _ASSO the same way it parses ASSO, so all is well.

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