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displaying patronymes 1 month 3 weeks ago #1

  • mariannevanharten
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In my tree I have many people who have a patronyme. In the gedcom file they are marked with the tag _PATR
In the general search page the patronyms are listed on a separated line, but I prefer to display it at my website between the given name and the (family) name.
May be I can do that using CSS or JS. If so, I don't know how to implement this in my current CSS/JS codes.
Who can help me?

Best regards,
Marianne

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displaying patronymes 1 month 3 weeks ago #2

  • bertkoor
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I'm pretty confident the "problem" is in your data. No css or other hack can solve this.

Are the patronyms included in the full name?
If not: what's the reason why? Because that would solve the problem.
What you see everywhere is the full name.
The division in parts (first name, patronym, surname) is for indexing and fancy detail forms.

Example:

1 NAME Jan Pieters /Holkema/
2 GIVN Jan
2 _PATR Pieters
2 SURN Holkema

You do editing in Excel, right? Solve it there.
You make the choice for full names to include the patronym when present.
So it needs to be in the 1 NAME field. Period.
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Last edit: by bertkoor.

displaying patronymes 1 month 3 weeks ago #3

  • mariannevanharten
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Hello Bert,
Thank you very much.
Yes, the patronyme is also part of the full name, but the problem remains that in the result list in webtrees the patronyme will be shown on a separate line:
Jan Pieters Holkema
Pieters
I would like to hide that separate line.

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displaying patronymes 1 month 3 weeks ago #4

  • bertkoor
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As shown where on what page / function exactly?
Could you please share the full raw gedcom of the name?
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Last edit: by bertkoor.

displaying patronymes 1 month 3 weeks ago #5

  • norwegian_sardines
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The tag _PATR is of course a non-standard GEDCOM tag and therefore not recognized for any specific use by webtrees.

If the GEDCOM is as entered like Bert indicated above the output would look like this:

A large part of my family prior to 1924 did not have a surname and relied on patronymic and farm names to identify themselves.

GEDCOM does not do a good job of supporting people without surnames or that rely on only patronymic names. So I assume that the software you used prior to coming over to webtrees "invented" the _PATR tag to support this situation.

The GEDCOM v5.5.1 Standard says the following about names:

The name value is formed in the manner the name is normally spoken, with the given name and family name (surname) separated by slashes (/).

Therefore my grandfather would was born before 1924 never had a surname and came from the Naustdal farm he was known as: Olaf Toresen Naustdal. Where Toresen is his patronymic name. I would therefore (since he never had a surname until after 1924) enter the full "known as" name in the NAME tag. Starting with:


To do this I would:

1) enter the enter value of his name in the "Given Names" field,
2) click on the edit Name field and remove the two '/' characters at the end of the field.

Ending with:


This then creates a proper GEDCOM v5.5.1 and displays the entire name in the correct order on the screen heading and in the Name Field.

The down side to this is that no surname is indexed and your surname list has all of the individuals under the "None" header. I solve this by entering a SURN value that kind of become a "clan" name (usually the farm name so that everyone associated with that farm are listed together.
Ken
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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.

displaying patronymes 1 month 3 weeks ago #6

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I think the following is what you see vs what I see. Olaf is my entry, Jan could be your entry!
Ken
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displaying patronymes 1 month 3 weeks ago #7

  • bertkoor
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Aha !! Thanks for the screenshot, Ken! This makes it very clear what's happening.

Looks like the problem is _PATR is unsupported / unrecognised (but clearly identifyable as a custom tag) and thus webtrees decides it could be a completely separate name.
That is the right decision for some custom tags (Phonetic spelling, Romanised, Latin instead of cyrillic/hebrew script etc etc) but works out not so well for patronyms.

webtrees needs to know what custom name tags should be ignored while building the list of alternative names. That's a feature request.
Or perhaps the non-main names have an identifyable css class and thus can be hidden. Then you might lose the display of all alternative names.
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Last edit: by bertkoor.

displaying patronymes 1 month 3 weeks ago #8

  • fisharebest
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> Looks like the problem is _PATR is unsupported / unrecognised (but clearly identifyable as a custom tag) and thus webtrees decides it could be a completely separate name.

Yes - this is exactly what is happening.

There are many custom name tags like this. They are all assumed to contain an alternative/additional name.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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displaying patronymes 1 month 3 days ago #9

  • mariannevanharten
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When webtrees recognized patronymes as names, it is also hard to examine duplicates.
E.g.:
Johan Pietersz. de Graaf
Karel Pietersz. Jansen
should be found as possible duplicates, but they aren't.

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displaying patronymes 1 month 3 days ago #10

  • bertkoor
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Did you see my other post about duplicates, Marianne?
www.webtrees.net/index.php/en/forum/help...-not-duplicate#86615
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Last edit: by bertkoor.

displaying patronymes 1 month 3 days ago #11

  • mariannevanharten
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@bertkoor, thanks.
* Just I can't find the list of top 100 surnames. I visited the list in the past, but now I can't find it.... Did a module set this option to hide?
* Can you explain me more about how to store a list in an HTML fragment on my page?

best regards,
Marianne

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displaying patronymes 1 month 1 day ago #12

  • bertkoor
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Can you explain me more [...]


Sure, see that other topic.

Johan Pietersz. de Graaf
Karel Pietersz. Jansen
should be found as possible duplicates, but they aren't.


???? The two persons in this example cannot ever be duplicates of each other. Different given names, different surnames.
They do share a patronym but generally speaking patronyms are too generic to draw any conclusion on without doing a lot of extra research.

Also in my experience there is a large variance in spelling of patronyms, especially due to the suffix: -s, -sz, -szn, -zn, -sen, -szen, -son, -szoon, etc.
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Last edit: by bertkoor.
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