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GEDCOM 7.0 1 year 1 week ago #1

  • Peter_S
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How is the status for GEDCOM 7.0?
Will it come with webtrees 2.1?
Peter

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GEDCOM 7.0 1 year 1 week ago #2

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How is the status for GEDCOM 7.0?
Will it come with webtrees 2.1?

No, I'm not adding GEDCOM 7 support right now.

I'm just adding support for "data-defined" GEDCOM structures, which will be needed when we do.

The biggest obstacle is converting non-standard GEDCOM 5.5.1 to GEDCOM 7.0

Many people mis-use GEDCOM tags and structures, and it will be challenging to convert this "unknown" structure.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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GEDCOM 7.0 2 weeks 9 hours ago #3

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Hello Greg,

more and more genealogy programs support GEDCOM 7 (MacFamilyTree, HEREDIS, ...).

What about webtrees? Is a GEDCOM 7 version in development? If yes, from which release on webtrees will support GEDCOM 7?
Peter

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GEDCOM 7.0 2 weeks 8 hours ago #4

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I would love to see what these programs mean by “support GEDCOM 7.0”!

Most programs said they supported GEDCOM v5.5.1 and did not actually support all of the constructs.

GEDCOM 7 is still changing and has made multiple updates since v7.0 came out. They are currently on v7.0.10 with more changes on the way.

So I doubt these programs really support GEDCOM v7.0 in it’s entirety!
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.

GEDCOM 7.0 2 weeks 6 hours ago #5

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> How is the status for GEDCOM 7.0?

In 2.1, we have a "core" of GEDCOM 5.5.1, with extra definitions for Heredis, Legacy, BrothersKeeper, FamilyTreeMaker, Reunion, etc.

You can see these definitions here: github.com/fisharebest/webtrees/tree/main/app/CustomTags

You will see that we also have some definitions for "GEDCOM 7"...

...so, we can display GEDCOM 7 files right now! Test files are available at gedcom.io/tools - try it!!

GEDCOM 7 tags are simply treated as extensions to GEDOM 5.5.1

But, we continue to create new data using GEDCOM 5.5.1

At some point in the future, we can switch the "core defintions" from 5.5.1 to 7.0. This should be pretty simple. It will probably just be a config option.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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GEDCOM 7.0 2 weeks 1 hour ago #6

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Thank you Greg for your quick reply.

As far as I understood, based on the „core definitions“, there will be either a 5.5.1 version or 7.0 version of webtrees. So it will not be possible to import ( or create), maintain and export a 5.5.1 GEDCOM file in parallel with a 7.0 GEDCOM file in the same webtrees application.

Do I see that right?
Peter

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GEDCOM 7.0 2 weeks 1 hour ago #7

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As far as I understood, based on the „core definitions“, there will be either a 5.5.1 version or 7.0 version of webtrees. So it will not be possible to import ( or create), maintain and export a 5.5.1 GEDCOM file in parallel with a 7.0 GEDCOM file in the same webtrees application.

I would prefer, at least for some years, if it would be possible to attach the label "5.5.1" or "7.0" to each tree. Because I do not think that it is possible to switch between 5.5.1 and 7.0 forward and backwards without any loss of information or manual edit activities. So if your tree has to be exchanged with other 5.5.1 programs you will stay at 5.5.1 for a longer time. If your tree can be exchanged with other 7.0 applications you will move very soon once to 7.0 and stay then at 7.0. This decision will be made tree by tree and not for all trees at the same point in time. So it would be nice if webtrees could support 5.5.1 and 7.0 at the same time.
Hermann
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webtrees 2.1.7 (all custom modules installed, php 8.1, MySQL 5.7) @ ahnen.hartenthaler.eu

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GEDCOM 7.0 2 weeks 1 hour ago #8

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...so, we can display GEDCOM 7 files right now! Test files are available at gedcom.io/tools - try it!!

Yes, webtrees is nearly perfect for importing and exporting GEDCOM 7.0 files already now. To only problem is that at the moment the GEDCOM 7 file is exported with a 5.5.1 header. This could be repaired easily. And webtrees is able already now to display many GEDCOM 7 tags. And webtrees is already capable of writing (but not reading) the new zipped GEDCOM file format containing multimedia files. So in my opinion webtrees is better than many other genealogical programs which say that they are "7.0 ready".

But sure there is still a lot to do to support new 7.0 features in the GUI and allow users to edit their files following new 7.0 concepts.
Hermann
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GEDCOM 7.0 2 weeks 35 minutes ago #9

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I would prefer, at least for some years, if it would be possible to attach the label "5.5.1" or "7.0" to each tree.

So it would be nice if webtrees could support 5.5.1 and 7.0 at the same time.

This would be my suggestion as well.
Peter

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GEDCOM 7.0 1 week 6 days ago #10

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webtrees writes whatever data it has. This data might be valid 5.5.1. It might be valid 7.0. It might be complete garbage. It might be a mix of all three.

But it will always create a 5.5.1 header.

We could change the header to 7.0, but the contents of the file would be exactly the same.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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GEDCOM 7.0 1 week 6 days ago #11

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For software to be GEDCOM7 compliant, it must be able to do one or more of the follwoing items (depending on the use case):
  1. import GEDCOM7 code
  2. create/edit GEDCOM7 code
  3. export GEDCOM7 code
Which of the listed items are we talking about?

webtrees writes whatever data it has.
What is meant by 'writes'?
Saving the data to webstrees' db or exporting it to a GEDCOM file?

We could change the header to 7.0, but the contents of the file would be exactly the same.

webtrees' great potential is that on the one hand it can import just about anything and on the other hand you can create any constructs you want (item 1) and 2) of the list above). This allows you to define a mix of arbitrary GEDCOM constructs within webtrees.

However, when exporting, webtrees must follow to the respective standard (V5.5.1 or 7). GEDCOM is a standard for data exchange and if a GEDCOM file has a V7 header, then it must not contain any V5.5.1 constructs ... and vice versa.
Otherwise, errors and/or data loss could occur in the importing program.

I have not exported any GEDCOM files from webtrees to third parties myself, so I have no experience of how well this works.
However, I would have assumed that if I export something from webtrees, it would then currently only contain GEDCOM V5.5.1 code.

Is this not the case? Are we currently exporting a GEDCOM mix?
Dieter
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GEDCOM 7.0 1 week 6 days ago #12

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Hi Greg,

I agree with you that a mix of 5.5.1, 7.0 and garbage can result from importing a non-standard GEDCOM file.

But when building a new tree within webtrees, I expect a GEDCOM compliant tree as result.

This means that a 7.0 tree should offer the structures and possibilities that the new standard allows (relationships within events, PHRASE fields, @VOID@-IDs, SNOTE, negative assertions, new enumerated values, and so on). So it is not enough to change the version only in the header when exporting.

From my point of view, different "core definitions" will be necessary, mapping either the 5.5.1 version or the 7.0 version. Both must exist side by side. The label in the tree mentioned by Hermann (this could be GEDC.VERS in the header) defines which "core definitions" has to be used for the tree and which are not. Such a label must be specified when a new tree is created.
Peter

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GEDCOM 7.0 1 week 6 days ago #13

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For software to be GEDCOM7 compliant, it must be able to do one or more of the follwoing items (depending on the use case):
  1. import GEDCOM7 code
  2. create/edit GEDCOM7 code
  3. export GEDCOM7 code
Which of the listed items are we talking about?

webtrees is doing all three topics already now (but the export of GEDCOM 7 code is done with a 5.5.1 header). Import of gedzipped files is not implemented.

What is meant by 'writes'?
Saving the data to webstrees' db or exporting it to a GEDCOM file?

both

However, when exporting, webtrees must follow to the respective standard (V5.5.1 or 7). GEDCOM is a standard for data exchange and if a GEDCOM file has a V7 header, then it must not contain any V5.5.1 constructs ... and vice versa.
Otherwise, errors and/or data loss could occur in the importing program.

I have not exported any GEDCOM files from webtrees to third parties myself, so I have no experience of how well this works.
However, I would have assumed that if I export something from webtrees, it would then currently only contain GEDCOM V5.5.1 code.

Is this not the case? Are we currently exporting a GEDCOM mix?

If the GEDCOM of your tree contains 5.5.1 and 7 and custom tags and 5.5 and ... then all this is exported.

The question is: who is responsible for the GEDCOM content of a tree? webtrees or the user. At the moment it is the user. webtrees supports many different dialects of GEDCOM. This is very helpful and a unique feature among all genealogical programs. This allows maximum flexibility for the user. There are hints provided by webtrees so that the user can see where is using non-standard GEDCOM, but still, even "wrong" GEDCOM code is imported, displayed and exported. From my point of view, this is perfect.

When creating a new tree from scratch I expect to be asked if this should be a 5.5.1 tree or a 7.0 tree. And then the user interface should offer different possibilities. When I import a tree I would expect that the header of this tree is interpreted and the tree should be labelled as 5.5.1 or 7.0 and again the GUI should be adapted to this (and the error search function should test against the definitions in those standards). But if I'm putting GEDCOM 7 code in a 5.5.1 tree (using raw-GEDCOM editing) this is my decision and webtrees should allow this (together with a warning maybe).
Hermann
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webtrees 2.1.7 (all custom modules installed, php 8.1, MySQL 5.7) @ ahnen.hartenthaler.eu

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Last edit: by hermann.

GEDCOM 7.0 1 week 6 days ago #14

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Ungeahnt said:

For software to be GEDCOM7 compliant, it must be able to do one or more of the follwoing items (depending on the use case):
import GEDCOM7 code
create/edit GEDCOM7 code
export GEDCOM7 code

Actually I believe in the case of webtrees all three must be present. This is because webtrees is unique from most other programs that it actually uses GEDCOM as data in its database, where other programs only need to read and write GEDCOM v7 because they do not have any (or limited amounts of) GEDCOM internally within their database.
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.

GEDCOM 7.0 1 week 5 days ago #15

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> This is because webtrees is unique from most other programs that it actually uses GEDCOM as data in its database,

Exactly this.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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GEDCOM 7.0 1 week 5 days ago #16

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webtrees is doing all three topics already now (but the export of GEDCOM 7 code is done with a 5.5.1 header).
In this case, this is neither GEDCOM 5.5.1 nor 7. It's only 'mixed' GEDCOM.

The question is: who is responsible for the GEDCOM content of a tree? webtrees or the user.
Very few users can or want to deal with the details of the different GEDCOM versions. In the last decade, there was practically only V5.5.1 and even then the data exchange was not easy. With V7 (and future versions) this becomes even more complex.

It would be unpleasant to realise only after the export that the laboriously created family tree does not comply with any standard. Therefore, webtrees should guide the user during creation/import/edit and finally during export.

Otherwise there would be quite a mess with webtrees export files.

I would therefore fully support Hermann's suggestions:

When creating a new tree from scratch I expect to be asked if this should be a 5.5.1 tree or a 7.0 tree. And then the user interface should offer different possibilities. When I import a tree I would expect that the header of this tree is interpreted and the tree should be labelled as 5.5.1 or 7.0 and again the GUI should be adapted to this (and the error search function should test against the definitions in those standards). But if I'm putting GEDCOM 7 code in a 5.5.1 tree (using raw-GEDCOM editing) this is my decision and webtrees should allow this (together with a warning maybe).
Dieter
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GEDCOM 7.0 1 week 5 days ago #17

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If you are interested in: "what are the topics where webtrees is exporting GEDCOM code which is not in line with the 5.5.1 standard", see the last bullet point in the German webtrees manual in the chapter " Besonderheiten ".
Hermann
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GEDCOM 7.0 1 week 5 days ago #18

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Ungeahnt wrote:

Very few users can or want to deal with the details of the different GEDCOM versions. In the last decade, there was practically only V5.5.1 and even then the data exchange was not easy. With V7 (and future versions) this becomes even more complex.

It would be unpleasant to realise only after the export that the laboriously created family tree does not comply with any standard. Therefore, webtrees should guide the user during creation/import/edit and finally during export.

Otherwise there would be quite a mess with webtrees export files.

To my knowledge, no software program generates 100% correct and complete v5.5.1 GEDCOM, including webtrees. Most, if not all, programs do not import 100% v5.5.1 GEDCOM either, dropping what they don’t understand. webtrees uniquely will except any incoming GEDCOM and not drop any data!

Every program has its own dialect of generated GEDCOM and I suspect this will continue with v7.0 in the future.

Because many members of the webtrees user base deploy multiple programs, (using webtrees as their internet display while using their desktop program or A.com as their data entry program) webtrees is bombarded with imports that don’t follow v5.5.1 GEDCOM and most of these users do not want lose data, it becomes very hard to be v5.5.1 or v7.0 compliant because of the way users want to use webtrees.

I personally would love to have webtrees be 100% v5.5.1 compliant, except that I want some things added to webtrees that make it better like the _ASSO link, and the _LOC link. So, no, webtrees can’t be 100% GEDCOM compliant for me either! And I’m the probably most pure GEDCOM person you are going to find in this forum!
Ken

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GEDCOM 7.0 1 week 5 days ago #19

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Hello Ken,

even if webtrees uses tags like _ASSO or _LOC, it is still 100% compatible to GEDCOM. User-defined tags that start with an underscore are 100% compliant with the standard in both 5.5.1 and 7.0.
Peter

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GEDCOM 7.0 1 week 5 days ago #20

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Peter_S said:

even if webtrees uses tags like _ASSO or _LOC, it is still 100% compatible to GEDCOM. User-defined tags that start with an underscore are 100% compliant with the standard in both 5.5.1 and 7.0.

Don't go down this path again! They are written as compliant in v5.5.1 but with no meaning, and in v7.0 it requires the reader to visit a website to understand the meaning. Therefore in most cases the value has no meaning and therefore will not be used by the the receiving program! I therefore reject their use in transmissions between applications!
Ken

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Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.
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