Before asking for help please read "Requesting Help and Suggestions" by clicking on that tab above here.
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2

TOPIC:

Historic facts place 1 week 3 days ago #1

  • Benazzi
  • Benazzi's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 67
Is it possible to include some way to validate the place of some event to show historic facts? As example, if someone was born in France, until he/she emigrates (immigration maybe works as a BIRT event) all french related events will be showed, as already works. And if there is a immigration to UK, then the historic facts showed change to those british, assuming that both are enabled. Like:
BIRT
Somehwhere, France
1770
EVENT
Somehwhere Else, France
1775
EVENT
Somehwhere Else, France
1790
EMMI
Somehwhere Else, France
1791
IMMI
Somehwhere, UK
1796
EVENT
Somehwhere Else, UK
1805
EVENT
Somehwhere Else, UK
1812
DEAT
Somehwhere Else, UK
1815

Do not make sense to me show some event (maybe unless a global event, like WWII) if this do not have relation with the place where a person was living.

Kind regards

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 2 days ago #2

  • norwegian_sardines
  • norwegian_sardines's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2208
I would think that unless all of your relatives only lived in a single country, using event specific to one country would not make sense to people living in another country.

Unless I'm mistaken..... An event from French history that happened at a time would display on the timeline for someone living in England during the same period. Therefore unless the French Event had bearing on the person in England then it would be confusing. I would then guess that you should only have historic events that are global in nature. WWI, WWII, The Spanish Flue, The COVID-19 Pandemic, The Black Plague, The Global Weather change of 1783 due to the Laki eruption on Iceland!

But I could be wrong.
Ken

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by norwegian_sardines.

Historic facts place 1 week 2 days ago #3

  • Benazzi
  • Benazzi's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 67
Yes, that is the point. But today, the historic facts works showing events ignoring places that a person lived, considering only dates. Or what is the relevance of a french president to a person that lived all time in Mexico?

Of course some events are exceptions, like you mentioned.

Kind regards

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 2 days ago #4

  • norwegian_sardines
  • norwegian_sardines's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2208
Benazzi,

So you are asking for an enhancement to the current way it works. You would need to spell out how to change the current behavior to the one you want!

I don't have much hope for the kind of logic you want, which is based on the location of each individual set in time and compared to the place and date of historic events around the globe.

But you can ask!
Ken

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 2 days ago #5

  • Benazzi
  • Benazzi's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 67
Yes, it is an enhancement. And the logic do not seems to be so complex in my point of view, maybe relate a geographic place (probably the country level only) with historic facts file and set some events to start and finish these possible ranges view. And sure, if some volunteer be interested, I'm available to explain better this suggestion.

Kind regards

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 2 days ago #6

  • hermann
  • hermann's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 391
I do not think that this is possible. For example, somebody is living in France all his life, but one time he traveled during a holiday to Iceland and was there injured by a volcano eruption. Or somebody is working and living all his life in France. She is working in the embassy of the USA in Paris. So it was important for her life who was president of the US during her time working in the embassy.

I see only two possibilities:
- defining a very specific set of historic events of relevance for every single person in your tree as a manual decision
- using a predefined set of historic events for all persons in your tree (one or more of the historic data modules selected by the admin) which may be of relevance for a specific person or not

In my tree, I have persons from all over the world, so I'm using historic events which are relevant for many different regions of the world. Most of them are irrelevant for the life of a specific person, but they are relevant for me to get a feeling of what was important at the time this specific person lived. For example, I'm a user from Germany and I know German history very well, so I'm using historic data modules with German history events. Even if a specific person in my tree lived in France, these historic events in Germany are irrelevant for this person maybe, but they are relevant for me, because I then know what was the characteristically historic context of the time this person lived.

So to decide what is relevant historic information depends not only on where the person lived, it depends on other things related to the person (like traveling, being a soldier, working in a global context) and it depends on the webtrees user, too (and they are maybe international, too).
Hermann
Designer of the custom module "Extended Family"

webtrees 2.0.17 (all available custom modules installed, php 7.4.15, MySQL 5.6) @ ahnen.hartenthaler.eu

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 2 days ago #7

  • Benazzi
  • Benazzi's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 67
Your examples are a little bit specifics. OK, to a person working in a embassy, then the president of this country is relevant when working in it. And when he/she retires and move to Angola? The USA president are still there, appearing to this new life stage, not only in old one. Worse, Austrian events, only because a distant cousin exists in the tree. And how percentage of people in a genealogical tree have this type of work? Then this could be managed on a exception rule for these people. To the travel event example, you can use same idea as emmigration and immingration, events that set ends and starts of this historic events place. Maybe let available also to customized events. And all this behaviour managed.

The point of define what event should not be restricted by this rule maybe in a separated file, once some of this occurred in several places at same time as this pandemic right now. Even a "shared event", without need of include this to every person that share same place.

I agree with you need of have idea what was happend at some time, and this could be too controle by user. But I keep thinking that is most useful get some flexibility to show these events.

In my tree I have too people of several contries, including direct ancestors. And I do not want to show french kings on my spanish individuals and vice versa. But yes to french people. Sounds more reasonable to me put this restriction rule with exceptions that show several events at individual page. Maybe reasonable on a timeline chart. Both have some at individual page: a 1400BC porguese king to my ancestor born in Lisbon in 1800 and a Dutch current prime minister to living russian individual.

So, historic facts could be restricted by place and date. Exceptions individuals, start/stop events and even if this behaviour is enabled controled by configuration. And as a plus, let user create/edit shared historical events, that could set dates and places and if is a global event.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 2 days ago #8

  • Sir Peter
  • Sir Peter's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 252
Currently for the end-user there is only one checkbox to activate or de-activate all "Historic events" from all enabled historic events modules.

What if this single checkbox would be replaced by some multiple choice feature allowing the end-user to chose which historic event modules should show their events, e. g. "show me the French events and the UK events, but ignore the Spanish and Italian ones".
Peter

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Do you need a web hosting solution for your webtrees site?
If you prefer a host that specialises in webtrees, the following page lists some suppliers able to provide one for you: 

Historic facts place 1 week 2 days ago #9

  • Benazzi
  • Benazzi's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 67
It is more flexible that currently but maybe could generate a layout problem, if user include new event files (is it possible?, include a CubanDictators.php and be listed) or activate all available today and list several checkboxes.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 2 days ago #10

  • hermann
  • hermann's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 391

So, historic facts could be restricted by place and date.


Up to now historic events in the webtrees historic data modules are related to specific dates or time frames but not to places or regions.

Here is an example from my module " Wars and battles worldwide ":
1 EVEN Bürgerkrieg in Syrien\n2 TYPE ".$civil_war."\n2 DATE FROM 2011\2 NOTE siehe [wikipedia ".$wikipedia."](https://".$wikipedia.".wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCrgerkrieg_in_Syrien )",

There is no standardised concept how to describe geographical regions in GEDCOM. If you like to use a historical data module not only for your personal tree but for the trees of many different users, such a standardisation would be necessary (for example I would use "Syrien" or "SYR" in this example, you would use maybe something else). And if the relevant time frame is not this century it will become more complex. How to describe an area in Syria for an event for example at 1 DEC 1700 in a standardized way? So I do not see a way to describe historic places or regions in a standardized way.
Hermann
Designer of the custom module "Extended Family"

webtrees 2.0.17 (all available custom modules installed, php 7.4.15, MySQL 5.6) @ ahnen.hartenthaler.eu

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 2 days ago #11

  • hermann
  • hermann's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 391
@Sir Peter: good idea!
Hermann
Designer of the custom module "Extended Family"

webtrees 2.0.17 (all available custom modules installed, php 7.4.15, MySQL 5.6) @ ahnen.hartenthaler.eu

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 1 day ago #12

  • Sir Peter
  • Sir Peter's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 252
Only webtrees admins can activate new historic event modules after a server admin has copied the new module onto the server's filesystem. All activated historic events modules are than available to all users.
Peter

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 1 day ago #13

  • Benazzi
  • Benazzi's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 67
Yes, there is no a standardised way to show places, but there is a way to show places. Or if you can relate a birth in some place, why it is not posible to relate a historic event with it? Of course some events ocurred in more than 1 place then I can create 1 event to which place in the worst scenario or create a event with several places (that could create these multiples events with one place). As:

1 EVEN WWII
2 DATE FROM 01 SEP 1939 TO 02 SEP 1945
2 PLAC Deutschland

1 EVEN WWII
2 DATE FROM APR 1940 TO 02 SEP 1945
2 PLAC Italia

Same event, more that 1 place and diferent time period. And following the standard that I've defined to my geographic data (name in main language of the place). Of course, if some events they could follow geographic data currently made available.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 1 day ago #14

  • fisharebest
  • fisharebest's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 15064

Currently for the end-user there is only one checkbox to activate or de-activate all "Historic events" from all enabled historic events modules.

What if this single checkbox would be replaced by some multiple choice feature allowing the end-user to chose which historic event modules should show their events, e. g. "show me the French events and the UK events, but ignore the Spanish and Italian ones".


This feature has already been requested - see github.com/fisharebest/webtrees/issues/3927

If you just have 2 or 3 modules, then checkboxes might work. If you have 10, then the user-interface gets messy.
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 1 day ago #15

  • Sir Peter
  • Sir Peter's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 252

If you have 10, then the user-interface gets messy.


I agree. Maybe this could be solved by a multiple options select list which certainly has its downsides, too. Additionally this list could be moved to a different place, e. g. to the sidebar on the right (where we find the Family Navigator) or to the upper right menu (where we find My pages | Language | Sign out). Example:
<form action="#">
	<label>Select your historic events module(s):
		<select name="modules" size="3" multiple>
			<option>Austrian presidents</option>
			<option selected>German history</option>
			<option>Moon landings</option>
			<option>Wars and battles</option>
			<option selected>French history</option>
			<option>UK history</option>
			<option>US presidents</option>
		</select>
	</label>
</form>
Peter

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 6 hours ago #16

  • Benazzi
  • Benazzi's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 67
I think that the best way is let user create some type of shared historic event that is displayed at individual page considering the place and date. Then it is possible to include from a huge event, as a war, that involves several places until smaller one, like some change of a city structure. And they could be shared and loaded like geographical data as a new add-on, local but still collaborative. Maybe the development be bigger but it keeps the logical of other features, as show events of a relative.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 5 hours ago #17

  • fisharebest
  • fisharebest's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 15064
Do you really need to have places in these historic facts?

The place is usually part of the event

If the event is "Prime minister of England", do you really need "2 PLAC England" ?
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 3 hours ago #18

  • Benazzi
  • Benazzi's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 67
Yeah, I think that is needed. If you put as your example, it is redundant. Seems to be better to put like "New Prime Minister" as the event and "2 PLAC United Kingdon". Then this will be appear to all individuals that have events that indicates they lived in England or Northern Ireland in the event period (considering that both are a second level place in geographical data used, below United Kingdon). Then it is posible to get some historical background of the period that a individual lived. And seems to be the unique way to restrict this event to people that could be related by this event.

Not trying minimize the event and using another example, a terrorist attack ocurred in New York is more relevant to show at individuals page that lived there when occurred. Some of them could be direct affected by the event. And show in someone lived in England is irrelevant in my point of view. So you can restrict to people (not to USA, but to New York City). Addicionally, it is possible to put some option to set a specific event to ignore place or consider to show to everyone or everyone with same top place (USA in this case). If some event must be displayed to two or more top places, you can let when be created, put all places related that be relevant these once saved create multiples similar events each one with a place (as example "Cold War" with "2 PLAC USA" and "Cold War" with "2 PLAC Soviet Union" with equal dates). And keeps both available to change date (like WWII, have several places related but some of them get involved later that other ones).

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 3 hours ago #19

Surely webtrees is for genealogy and not for recording social history!

Nothing wrong with including key historic events that occurred during the lifespan of an individual - these can be both relevant and interesting - but I don't think anything more than that currently supported is needed.

There's nothing to stop anyone developing a more comprehensive method of recording non-genealogy historic events and facts, that's what modules are for, but I don't think it's right to expect the 'core' webstrees code to support this.

Just my opinion! I'm sure some will disagree.

Mark
webtrees v2.0.17
PHP v7.3.30

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Historic facts place 1 week 2 hours ago #20

Do you really need to have places in these historic facts?

The place is usually part of the event

If the event is "Prime minister of England", do you really need "2 PLAC England" ?


@Greg

As I'm allready working on historic events: How about combining all historic events into one file, enhanced with translation and "PLAC" and maybe a tag for original language? If desired more events can then be added by pull requests.

If this idea can be realised, I'll be happy to combine the existing files for you.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Lars1963.
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2
Powered by Kunena Forum