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Historic facts place 1 week 1 hour ago #21

  • ddrury
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Surely webtrees is for genealogy and not for recording social history! Mark


Fully agree
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Historic facts place 1 week 1 hour ago #22

  • Benazzi
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Surely webtrees is for genealogy and not for recording social history!

Nothing wrong with including key historic events that occurred during the lifespan of an individual - these can be both relevant and interesting - but I don't think anything more than that currently supported is needed.

There's nothing to stop anyone developing a more comprehensive method of recording non-genealogy historic events and facts, that's what modules are for, but I don't think it's right to expect the 'core' webstrees code to support this.

Just my opinion! I'm sure some will disagree.

Mark

The original point of this post is to improve the filter of historic events, an existing add-on. And evolved to further details. I agree that webtrees is for genealogy and not social history. And likes the idea of related background events using historical facts. But the currently way of display make me do not use, I dont like it. And restrict to key facts is obviously the worse: who defines which is a key fact? To know who is the currently king of somewhere else is so relevant to me of how type of sugar I need to buy. But may be crucial to someone that lives there.

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Historic facts place 1 week 1 hour ago #23

  • norwegian_sardines
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Marky said:

Surely webtrees is for genealogy and not for recording social history!

I agree to a point!

I very much like to provide some specific social history to family members who are not into history or know/understand the context in which our ancestors live, but I question whether this is the appropriate way to tell those stories!

For example: Knowing that the during an ancestor's life the King of Norway was actually the King of Denmark or Sweden has very little value to my US relatives, they have no basic knowledge of the history of Norway and why a date is important. The same would be true for my German or Norwegian relatives that FDR was the President in 1933. It is more important to understand that he implemented the "New Deal" during his Presidency! The "fact" of the King or President being in power on a specific date is out of context for my readers and visitors compared to the reason it is important to note!

What I am in the process of implementing is the use of the Vesta modules using "Shared Places" to tell the history of a place and by extension some basic facts that involve all relatives of the time period my genealogy encompasses.

This also helps with tell how place names may have changed over time or were effected by war, or other events.
Ken

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Historic facts place 1 week 11 minutes ago #24

  • Benazzi
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The way to show those events is good to me: a flag that includes it at individual page. If you do not want to show, just do not enable the module. If wants, then need to enable and decides if must be optional or obligatory.

And turning to historic of a place seems to be like I've thought: an event that reports a change of a place. Then if you was born in 1970 at West Germany and still living at same place, today you live in Germany. Then when exists a German Reunification shared event, it will appear in your individual page. You live at same place, but the place changed in some point. And without need to change original place of event, only need to include another one in geographical data. And if it is possible, relate both in some way.

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Historic facts place 6 days 19 hours ago #25

  • hermann
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I like the idea of @norwegian_sardines to enrich location records (Vesta module) with historic information and I'm doing the same. People living 100 or more years ago were much more than we today fixed to one location and a small area around their village. So the history of the location where they lived is closely linked to their history. And if you use additionally the GOV module you get all the historic information about the relation a village was belonging to, the name changes of this location, and the number of inhabitants in former days for example.

Back to the discussion about the historic data modules of webtrees. I have not seen any suggestion in the discussion up to now on how to standardize location names. There was written "2 PLAC England", but for me, it has to be "2 PLAC England, GBR" otherwise it will not fit into the location hierarchy of my tree. The same for the cold war in "2 PLAC Soviet Union"; since I prefer to use in my family tree only the location names as they are used today. But others would have other preferences, so without standardization of location names, it is not possible to offer a solution for using locations in historic events which work for all webtrees users in the same way.

I don't like the idea to have all historic data modules to be combined in one file. I think they should be organized as they are: related to a topic or a geographical region, for example, worldwide wars or presidents of a nation . It would be helpful to standardize for such webbtrees modules:
- how to make them translatable
- how to specify a source like Wikipedia (depending on the language of the webtrees user, what is not so easy)
- how to use markdown so that it looks good independent whether the admin of a tree has markdown enabled or disabled.
Hermann
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Historic facts place 6 days 18 hours ago #26

@hermann

Basically I agree completely with you, but the problem still exist on how to find a practical solution to select the desired historic modules. My idea to make a combined file gives one possibility to select desired facts. In that case, simple regioncodes should be sufficiant to achieve that. But maybe that can also be solved in the actual modules, using a centralised region code (that means not in the gedcom-tags). I`ll see, if I can come up with a solution for that.

Translation is essentially not so hard to solve, this can be done the same way as the rest of webtrees using weblate, See e.g. github.com/fisharebest/webtrees/pull/4116

Wikipedia is harder to solve, as the originally topics are not always available in other language. I therefore use only hardcode Wikipedia articles in the primary language.

Markdown is probably not so relevant, as the actual modules have no real use for it (apart from the Internet-links offcourse).

Another Idea might be to remove the historic modules from the core and bring them into a multiselect add-on/custom module?

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Last edit: by Lars1963.

Historic facts place 6 days 18 hours ago #27

  • Benazzi
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Maybe my limited English block me to explain this. I've already suggested in other post improvement in places module, to let possible to register old names and details of them, like fusion of two cities in one. Think as a individual register but to a place.
The subject of standardized places is based on your tree rules, without need to set to all users. If you want to register a event of a person in Great Britain or GBR, there is no problem. Once you let historical facts flexible as follow then. So, the geographical data could be flexible as well. If London changes his name today to Old York, you could relate both names as a unique place, with same geographical coordinates and details that could be let user to know about this change, without need to change all individual events to use its new name.
The historic events as I suggested will work as shared notes, but with no need to include in all related person, only by relation of shared events places and dates with personal events. Then if you want to load a set of historic events, then it be available in CSV files similar as geographical data. And if you want to change or to include, there is no problem. And no need to let all historic events in one or multiple files, just registers to show as background event of an individual depending of date and place match.

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Historic facts place 6 days 18 hours ago #28

@Benazzi..

I see what you mean, but your desired solution is not so trivial as it seems. In fact only the Vesta-Module shared places is offering some kind of logic you want. So someone has to write a custom module which does the same with historic events, which might eventually replace the core historic modules.

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Last edit: by Lars1963.

Historic facts place 6 days 17 hours ago #29

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@Lars1963,

Yes, I know that functional design is easier that technical development, I work with this. But is how I can help this project, and if some suggestion could be implemented is better. If none, so do not make sense suggest anything.

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Historic facts place 6 days 15 hours ago #30

  • hermann
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@Benazzi, good idea not to use real names like London or Old York, but to use something that is independent of time. This is for example the GOV ID. At the moment the historic data modules of webtrees are using standard GEDCOM syntax. This has advantages and disadvantages. Maybe using a GOV-ID in the historic data instead of a GEDCOM PLAC would help to solve your problem (this is the direction @Lars1963 mentioned with his "regioncodes"). Then it would be possible to develop a custom module which does the following:
- collect all places an individual is connected to (birthplace, marriage, death, ...) with their GOV-IDs (using the Vesta GOV module)
- matching the GOV IDs in all activated historic event modules (or a unified single event database) with the GOV IDs of the individual using the hierarchy which is part of the GOV database
- display the historic event in the timeline of this individual if there was a match
So if the person lived in London (GOV ID object_357226 ) and died in Stalingrad (Russia) (GOV ID WOLRADLN28HT ) in World War II and there are historic events like "George VI" got King of the United Kingdom related to the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" (GOV ID object_290485 ) or "Battle of Stalingrad" (related to a place with GOV ID WOLRADLN28HT ), then both of these events will fit this person and are shown.

Is this what you want? But then you have to use GOV IDs together with all your places (I'm doing this already).
Hermann
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Last edit: by hermann.

Historic facts place 6 days 15 hours ago #31

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@Lars1963,

remove the historic modules from the core and bring them into a multiselect add-on/custom module?


This would make sense. It is better for an admin to have one point to install and manage all historic data instead of the situation we have now: several independent core modules and several independent custom modules for historic data.

But if the data is not in the core: who is responsible to take care of this information? At the moment the quality of the modules is different, the naming is inconsistent. It would be good to have somebody who organizes this and does the quality management. Or should we use a collaborative way? Are there already databases of historic events? Wikidata? Why not use them? Or build up a genealogical-oriented database of events especially for webtrees using the data in all available historic data modules? Maybe your idea was better than I thought at first.
Hermann
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webtrees 2.0.17 (all available custom modules installed, php 7.4.15, MySQL 5.6) @ ahnen.hartenthaler.eu

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Historic facts place 6 days 13 hours ago #32

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@Benazzi, good idea not to use real names like London or Old York, but to use something that is independent of time. This is for example the GOV ID. At the moment the historic data modules of webtrees are using standard GEDCOM syntax. This has advantages and disadvantages. Maybe using a GOV-ID in the historic data instead of a GEDCOM PLAC would help to solve your problem (this is the direction @Lars1963 mentioned with his "regioncodes"). Then it would be possible to develop a custom module which does the following:
- collect all places an individual is connected to (birthplace, marriage, death, ...) with their GOV-IDs (using the Vesta GOV module)
- matching the GOV IDs in all activated historic event modules (or a unified single event database) with the GOV IDs of the individual using the hierarchy which is part of the GOV database
- display the historic event in the timeline of this individual if there was a match
So if the person lived in London (GOV ID object_357226 ) and died in Stalingrad (Russia) (GOV ID WOLRADLN28HT ) in World War II and there are historic events like "George VI" got King of the United Kingdom related to the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" (GOV ID object_290485 ) or "Battle of Stalingrad" (related to a place with GOV ID WOLRADLN28HT ), then both of these events will fit this person and are shown.

Is this what you want? But then you have to use GOV IDs together with all your places (I'm doing this already).

Hi Hermann,
I've thought a lite bit different:
- to register a event of a person, I still use real names of places, following my geographical structure that I've choose. But the place could be recognised and explain place changes. An example: two cities was fusioned into one. I would like to keep the original place name in the events but display an info that both cities have today a new name. And if I click on place link to show people related and geographical map, I can get few details of this. So I can click in both city name link, then go to same page that will display these details. As a real example: a french city called Terrasson, in Aquitaine region where my ancestor was born in XIX century. In 1963, it was fusioned with another city called Lavilledieu, then now official name is Terrasson-Lavilledieu. And in 2016, the region change its name to Novelle-Aquitaine after be fusioned with another 2: Limousin and Poitou-Charentes. So, only currently city and region will have a place page that will show these changes without need to change the event of person. Then even I register a event using Terrasson-Lavilledieu, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France or Terrasson, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France or even Terrasson-Lavilledieu, Dordogne, Novelle-Aquitaine, France, the link should go to display data of the currently name, with details of these changes. Maybe regarding user if he tries to use old name in a recent event. And geographical map could show original coordinates of each one considering a fusion. In this way I can keep the place changes, that was discussed in another topic.
- to register a historic event, I can create one like WWII, include France as one related place and dates from 1939 and 1945. So each person that have events that had some match with it (as examples 1913-1942, 1940-1960, 1910-1950 or 1941-1944) may display this information, as historic event. Maybe if was born during the historic event, the start of it could be displayed before BIRT event. I even can create a historic event that could be used at place changes, then I use its reference as justification of city fusion or other change.

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Historic facts place 6 days 4 hours ago #33

@hermann

@Lars1963,

remove the historic modules from the core and bring them into a multiselect add-on/custom module?


This would make sense. It is better for an admin to have one point to install and manage all historic data instead of the situation we have now: several independent core modules and several independent custom modules for historic data.

But if the data is not in the core: who is responsible to take care of this information? At the moment the quality of the modules is different, the naming is inconsistent. It would be good to have somebody who organizes this and does the quality management. Or should we use a collaborative way? Are there already databases of historic events? Wikidata? Why not use them? Or build up a genealogical-oriented database of events especially for webtrees using the data in all available historic data modules? Maybe your idea was better than I thought at first.


Good points. Our ideas are now evolving in the way @miletrac www.webtrees.net/index.php/en/forum/2-op...-plugin-for-webtrees has done.

As we're moving away from the basic topic, it maybe a good idea to ask @makitso to move this topic to www.webtrees.net/index.php/en/forum/9-request-for-new-feature?

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Last edit: by Lars1963.

Historic facts place 6 days 1 hour ago #34

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@Benazzi: your first point is exactly what GOV and the Vesta GOV modules are for. So this is solved already. The data in GOV for Terrasson is not actual, you have to correct this in GOV, but then it would do what you want.

about your second point: as I had said already, you cannot use a historic data module with an event
1 EVEN WW II
2 PLAC , , , France
This could work for your tree, but not for mine because I'm using FRA instead of France for the event in my tree, others would use Frankreich for example. How should an algorithm know that FRA = France = Frankreich? It needs a standardized naming. It is impossible to translate all location names worldwide into all the languages webtrees is supporting. The solution can be maybe GOV-Ids or standardized region codes or ...
Hermann
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Historic facts place 6 days 42 minutes ago #35

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Hi Hermann,

For second point, I've said that my suggestion is to let user create your own historic events, like a shared note but with an event structure and following none special geographical data pattern. So if you want to register it as France, FRA, Frankreich or Galia is irrelevant. So, in my research, I will use France because I already use person event in this way. Then the historic event could be recognised relevant to my french ancestors. In your research you can create same event using your currently geographical structure, no matter how it is. The only need is to follow your own geographical data pattern to be recognisable through person events.

So, once flexible as this, we can create and share at webtrees "historic events data", CSV files flexible as well. Maybe French Kings or European Kings or even French National Historic Events. Then each event must have dates and places that could be changed before upload to historic events module. I will change places of CSV before import to France if you share some file using place as FRA and you could change to Frankreich if someone else share CSV file using France. Of course, if each one want to display historic events shared in this specific CSV. In this way, it be like a source or census without need of be included in every individual manually, just being automatically matched by date and place.
Regarding that this should be a feature to improve historic background visualization in individual page. Without need to register to GEDCOM when exported.

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Historic facts place 5 days 22 hours ago #36

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Regarding your first paragraph: you can do this already - build up your personal historic data module by creating your own historic events and using your own geographical structure using "2 PLAC xxx". This is no problem (besides the confusing problem SirPeter has described here some time ago). This doesn't solve the matching problem, you still need your own specific custom module to match your historic data with the timeline of the events of the individuals in your family tree. This would be a specific matching module for your configuration and nobody can provide such a module as you.

Regarding sharing historic data there are maybe several possibilities, like a historic data module as we have it now or as an alternative a CSV file, a GEDCOM file, ... Ok.

You are suggesting that everybody has to search and replace location names before he can use or import the shared information. For example, replace France by FRA or Cologne by Köln or Волгоград by Wolgograd. So it is necessary to have a look at all records and modify them manually before you can use them. My module wars-and-battles since the year 900 has about 1,600 records with many locations with location names that do not exist today anymore. It would be a huge effort for everybody to adapt such a historic data file to his own geographical structure. As a result, the situation would be no better than today: the value of historic data is very limited. I would prefer a solution where you can use any historic data file without manually adapting it. And to have a general matching module, that is independent of the geographical structure in each webtrees family tree.
Hermann
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Historic facts place 5 days 21 hours ago #37

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So, if your module wars-and-battle was just shared historic events and you could share a CSV file with all 1600 records to import? Then I can adjust places like I prefer before import. And when I share another CSV to same module, listing all Spanish Kings you could ajust too, using your geographical structure. It will generate some work before import, but is easier that to convince all user that your way or my way of to structure geographical data is the best. Or, avoiding force user to update manually all geographical data of historic events, I suggest to use name in local major language of place. So, all user must be oriented to use as example Deutschland instead of Germany, Brasil instead of Brazil, España instead of Spain and so on. It is the way that I use, but I know that few users will like this option. Like to use all place names in english or german.

Maybe some tool using OpenStreetMap could help this, but I have no idea if it exist. And to stardardize geographical structure seems to be unreachable.

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Historic facts place 5 days 10 hours ago #38

  • WGroleau
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Using one of my people for an example:

born in France on (date)
moved to Canada on (date)
moved to USA on (date)
moved from Montana to Oregon on (date unknown)
for World War II, returned to France to fight because US and Canadian Armies wouldn't take him.
back to USA after the war
died in USA on (date)

Now, it sounds like you want webtrees to build for each INDI or FAM a time line of places and be selective about events based on that. But there are other events mixed in, and hundreds of legal ways the GEDCOM could list them.
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Historic facts place 5 days 8 hours ago #39

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Enriching your people example with supposed dates and places:
BIRT ABT 1914 France
EMMI 10 AUG 1916 Calais, France
IMMI 15 AUG 1916 Toronto, Canada
EMMI 19 JUL 1930 Toronto, Canada
IMMI 19 JUL 1930 Montana, USA
RESI ABT 1932 Oregon, USA
EMMI SEP 1939 Oregon, USA
IMMI SEP 1939 Bordeaux, France
EMMI ABT JUL 1945 Normandie, France
IMMI 28 JUL 1945 New York City, USA
DEAT 05 FEB 2005 New York City, USA

Currently I've registered as historic events:
WWII from 1939 to 1945, with USA, Deutschland, France, Italia, and United Kingdom. But I've adjusted event created to USA to stars in 1942.
Terrorist Attack 11 SEP 2001 New York City, USA
All Canadian, American and French presidents, with respective country only and dates.

When displaying individual page with Historic Events enabled, it will show elected president in France in 1912, that ends his presidency in 1917. This like an special because happens before born of individual, just to know during what presidency he was born. And all elected Canadian presidents from 1916 until 1930, Americans elected from 1930 until 1939 and 1945 and 2005, the end of WWII in July 1945 and the terrorists attacks in 2001. If some president was elected in France during war, it will be displayed too. Of course, following chronological order mixed with individual events.
If in future I include all mayor of USA, from 1900 to 2020, with place as cities, then all New York mayors from 1945 to 2005 will be shown. None for Montana or Oregon. These only could show when I add all American governors. And will show only elected in Montana from 1930 to 1932 and in Oregon from 1932 to 1939.

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Historic facts place 4 days 22 hours ago #40

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The solution can be maybe GOV-Ids or standardized region codes or ...

ISO 3166-1α2 and a cross-reference to names used in the GEDCOM. The latter is needed, because most people who look at my site will think "ca" means California and won't have a clue about "ch" So, I'm not going to put those in my GEDCOM.
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Last edit: by WGroleau.
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