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TOPIC: Cemetery under Burial

Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #1

  • Shemwell
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The "New entry facts" in the Edit options of my family tree are set to: BIRT,DEAT,BURI

When I add an individual I only see: (under Burial)

Burial
Date of burial
Place of burial
(No Cemetery)

If I specifically select Burial on the Facts page (BURI) I get:

Burial
Cemetery
Date of burial
Place of burial
Address

if I Add CEME to "All facts" and the "New entry facts" I get:

Cemetery
Date
Place

but it's in an odd position, under Birth, no longer under Burial, and I now have Cemetery listed on the Facts page as well as a Cemetery: still associated with Burial.

Can I, or how do I get Cemetery in the "New entry facts" under Burial without using the CEMI tag?, or without adding a new fact entry?.


Thanks,

Barry
Barry
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #2

  • kiwi
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That all sounds a bit confusing, but needs further investigation.

However, the broader answer to the question is that the CEME tag was removed from the GEDCOM specification years ago and should therefore not be used.

To add details of a cemetery either add it as another 'level' to your place (PLAC) or as a NOTE to the burial.

Meanwhile, I'll see if I can follow your logic and reproduce those issues.
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #3

  • kiwi
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OK, I think I now understand what you are saying (apologies if the following proves me wrong :-) )

Shemwell wrote:
The "New entry facts" in the Edit options of my family tree are set to: BIRT,DEAT,BURI
Correct. These "quick facts" are for "level 1" facts only. IF you choose to use CEME it would be as a level 2, subsidiary to the burial.

Shemwell wrote:
When I add an individual I only see: (under Burial)

Burial
Date of burial
Place of burial
(No Cemetery)
Also correct. When adding an individual you only have the option to add basic, level 1, data. To add more more detail, edit those entries later.

Shemwell wrote:
If I specifically select Burial on the Facts page (BURI) I get:

Burial
Cemetery
Date of burial
Place of burial
Address
Again, correct. For historical reasons webtrees still allows the addition of cemetery details, using the redundant CEME tag as part of the more detailed burial edit screen. Personally I think it shouldn't, and have removed it from my own site (using css).

Shemwell wrote:
if I Add CEME to "All facts" and the "New entry facts" I get:

Cemetery
Date
Place

but it's in an odd position, under Birth, no longer under Burial, and I now have Cemetery listed on the Facts page as well as a Cemetery: still associated with Burial.
You are right. By adding it to the "New entry facts" you are making it available at the (incorrect) level 1. We should probably remove it from the list of optional "New entry facts", though I'm not sure the code allows us that option.

Shemwell wrote:
Can I, or how do I get Cemetery in the "New entry facts" under Burial without using the CEMI tag?, or without adding a new fact entry?.
No, and as explained above, you shouldn't, and we shouldn't let you (IMHO)
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Last Edit: 5 years 11 months ago by kiwi.
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #4

  • Jackie
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kiwi wrote:
To add details of a cemetery either add it as another 'level' to your place (PLAC) or as a NOTE to the burial.

Hi Nigel,

How about recording the cemetery in the field ADDRess ? (BURIal)
Last Edit: 5 years 11 months ago by Jackie.
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #5

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Jackie wrote:
kiwi wrote:
To add details of a cemetery either add it as another 'level' to your place (PLAC) or as a NOTE to the burial.

Hi Nigel,

How about recording the cemetery in the field ADDRess ? (event BURIal)

Yes, sorry, I forgot that option. Perfectly OK.
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #6

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Hi Nigel,

I prefer to record the cemetery in the field address because of place level's display settings. (Abbreviate place names "show the" first [part(s) of a place name]
Last Edit: 5 years 11 months ago by Jackie.
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #7

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Jackie wrote:
Hi Nigel,

I prefer to record the cemetery in the field address because of place level's display settings.

Not sure I understand the problem you are referring to.
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #8

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Hi Nigel,

If you record the cemetery in the field PLAC and you set « Abbreviate place names » "show the" first [part(s) of a place name] 1

webtrees will display the name of the cemetery instead of the city where the person was buried
Last Edit: 5 years 11 months ago by Jackie.
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #9

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Jackie wrote:
If you record the cemetery in the field PLAC and you set « Abbreviate place names » "show the" first [part(s) of a place name]

Ah, yes, I see. Not a problem for me as I prefer to set that to "Show the LAST 3 parts of a place name". Far easier to work with in my data, as that means a simple UK-format "Town, County, Country" display which is adequate for those places where abbreviated place names is used (i.e. tiny chart boxes).
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #10

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Hi Nigel,

French names are often very long.. e.g. Cemetery « Le Repos Saint-François », City « Pointe-aux-Trembles » !!
In some charts, the first part of a place is enough (WHEW!)
Last Edit: 5 years 11 months ago by Jackie.
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #11

  • ToyGuy
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And I'm with Nigel. At the "general facts" level where the PLAC level display is an issue, I prefer the higher levels, as there are far too many duplicates in the small places/city names, across counties, states or provinces and countries. Are we talking Paris France or Paris Missouri or Paris Canada ? I don't think Paris is nearly descriptive enough, nor would be Evergreen Cemetery (there are more than 58 of those in the USA alone).
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #12

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ToyGuy wrote:
And I'm with Nigel. At the "general facts" level where the PLAC level display is an issue, I prefer the higher levels, as there are far too many duplicates in the small places/city names, across counties, states or provinces and countries. Are we talking Paris France or Paris Missouri or Paris Canada ? I don't think Paris is nearly descriptive enough, nor would be Evergreen Cemetery (there are more than 58 of those in the USA alone).

Hi Stephen,

Good point Stephen ! As usual, you convinced me and I changed my settings to first « 2 parts of a place name ». First 3 parts is good too.
Last Edit: 5 years 11 months ago by Jackie.
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #13

  • Shemwell
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So...I should not use a CEME tag (Cemetery) that is in the program under Burial...because it is no longer gedcom compliant.
I could use the Address or Note but then the Cemetery report will only find a cemetery if it's listed in the PLAC field.

I like the look and simplicity of the entry for Cemetery in Burial. If the user enters the the name of the Cemetery, as well as Place of burial (city,county,state,country) the Cemetery location is not really an issue, however it's non compliant and it doesn't appear in the Cemetery reports.

What if... the Cemetery:__ was just a holder for Level 5 in the location, not a CEME tag. If something was entered then you get (cemetery,city,county,state,country) if not then just (city,county,state,country). It presents well, Google maps work, it would appear in the Cemetery reports and it would be gedcom compliant.

I apologize if I have no idea about what I'm suggesting, as an old retired senior project coordinator with absolutely no experience in code, I generally can only envision the forest, frequently losing sight of the trees.
Barry
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #14

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Unnecessarily complicated Barry.

Just add the cemetery as another "normal" level in your place name. You can then easily use the List > Place hierarchy page to display the list of all people linked to that place. No need for a "Cemetery report" at all.

If you are diligent and use a common word like "Cemetery" in all cemetery names, then you can also easily use Advanced Search to find lists as well.
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #15

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Shemwell wrote:
I like the look and simplicity of the entry for Cemetery in Burial.
If you are stuck on this, continue to use it. It is, in many genealogy programs, still a supported tag, just as it is in webtrees. However, don't read into this reply that I make any suggestion that it is proper to use it. It is a deprecated tag and, as such, there is always the possibility that it may not be supported in future versions of any program and you would have to declare it strictly a custom tag (which effectively, it is now).
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #16

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Shemwell wrote:
So...I should not use a CEME tag (Cemetery) that is in the program under Burial...because it is no longer gedcom compliant.
I could use the Address or Note but then the Cemetery report will only find a cemetery if it's listed in the PLAC field.

Barry,
I stopped using CEME about the time I switched over to webtrees. Using PLAC over ADDR, I can take advantage of auto complete instead of typing the name over and over again. I can see it in Place Hierarchy too. I use 4 levels - Washington “Glenwood Cemetery”, District of Columbia, USA. Optional is placement of the actual cemetery name. I see the pop down list places it before the City and not in quotations = Glenwood Cemetery, Washington, District of Columbia, USA.

The cemetery report can be modified, which I've done but haven't added back to current version until I confirm the code. And, won't do that until ready to use again.
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #17

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I had no idea that the burial place tag is deprecated, especially since it's present on the empty screen for entering a burial event. Tbh I missed the simular field on cremations.

May I comment that I find it a bit bizarre that apparently a tag which is declared deprecated in the GEDCOM specs is still presented to fill in on the webtree screen for burials. I can understand the support for showing them (existing data), but new entry of deprecated tags should imho be discouraged and not be as easy as it currently is.

Maybe the same is true for other deprecated tags...
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #18

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bertkoor wrote:
May I comment that I find it a bit bizarre that apparently a tag which is declared deprecated in the GEDCOM specs is still presented to fill in on the webtree screen for burials. I can understand the support for showing them (existing data), but new entry of deprecated tags should imho be discouraged and not be as easy as it currently is..

I absolutely agree, which is why I have removed the tag from my own site (using css). Unfortunately when I have suggested removing the tag before (from the default options, not completely) others have objected.
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #19

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bertkoor wrote:
May I comment that I find it a bit bizarre that apparently a tag which is declared deprecated in the GEDCOM specs is still presented to fill in on the webtree screen for burials.
And I too, agree. That is why I use CSS to remove the access to the tag and it only appears if a few original records where it was entered, and slowly I'm repairing those as well, adding them all to the PLAC hierarchy.
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Cemetery under Burial 5 years 11 months ago #20

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May I comment that I find it a bit bizarre that apparently a tag which is declared deprecated in the GEDCOM specs is still presented to fill in on the webtree screen for burials. I can understand the support for showing them (existing data), but new entry of deprecated tags should imho be discouraged and not be as easy as it currently is.

There is currently quite a lot of support for the CEME tag. In particular we have the "Cemetery Report". It also features on the BMD report. There is help-text for it. There is auto-complete for it. There is an icon for it in the Xenea theme, though I am not sure it is ever used.

So, how much of this support should we remove? As a project, I believe it is our responsibility to encourage our users to store their data in a standards-compliant, portable structure - for their own benefit.

Therefore I would be happy to remove all of this support. Simply display it appropriately on the facts/events tab when it already exists. The same as we do for hundreds of other non-standard tags.

However...

Deleting a module (the cemetery report) is actually quite tricky. The upgrade process does not allow us to delete modules. Instead, we have to replace the entire set of modules (currently version 3) with a new set of modules (version 4) that excludes this report.

Such a version change means that everyone with a custom module will need to copy it from the old to the new module folder.


So, removing support is the right thing to do, but will cause a lot of hassle. Should we do it? Perhaps wait until the next code change that forces a module version upgrade?
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