Web based family history software

This Help forum is for issues relates to the latest release (1.4.6). For issues related to beta or git version please use their own Help forum.
Before asking for help please read "How to request help" by clicking on that tab above here.

Question "On this day" and French revolutionary calendar

  • pcharra
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Parle un peu français mais très mal anglais...
More
10 years 8 months ago #1 by pcharra
Hello to all
Bug or not bug?
A French revolutionary calendar date corresponding to 10 July spring with the events of 12 July on the block "On this day".


Patrick Charra
webtrees 2.1.16 [url] genea.charra.net [/url]
OVH PHP 8.0.19 MySQL 5.7.41
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • fisharebest
  • Away
  • Administrator
  • Administrator
More
10 years 8 months ago #2 by fisharebest
Replied by fisharebest on topic "On this day" and French revolutionary calendar
Anniversaries are calculated according to the calendar in which they were recorded.

Today is (or would be) 22 Messidor CCXXI

Hence today is the anniversary of an event recorded on 22 Messidor III.

Greg Roach - greg@subaqua.co.uk - @fisharebest@phpc.social - fisharebest.webtrees.net

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • phicome
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
10 years 8 months ago #3 by phicome

fisharebest wrote: Today is (or would be) 22 Messidor CCXXI

Non : Quartidi, 24 Messidor an CCXXI
Voir à la fin de la page

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • pcharra
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Parle un peu français mais très mal anglais...
More
10 years 8 months ago #4 by pcharra

fisharebest wrote:
Today is (or would be) 22 Messidor CCXXI

Hence today is the anniversary of an event recorded on 22 Messidor III.


Greg thank you for your reply.

But I think you made ​​a mistake.

Today would be 24 Messidor CCXXI and not 22.






Patrick Charra
webtrees 2.1.16 [url] genea.charra.net [/url]
OVH PHP 8.0.19 MySQL 5.7.41
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • fisharebest
  • Away
  • Administrator
  • Administrator
More
10 years 8 months ago #5 by fisharebest
Replied by fisharebest on topic "On this day" and French revolutionary calendar
The English wikipedia page says it is Primidi 21 Messidor (!!!)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar

The problem (posisbly??) is that the rules for leap years are not clear. There was a proposal to change the rules, but the calendar ended before the new rules could be used.

webtrees simply continues with a leap year every 4 years.

Greg Roach - greg@subaqua.co.uk - @fisharebest@phpc.social - fisharebest.webtrees.net

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • pcharra
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Parle un peu français mais très mal anglais...
More
10 years 8 months ago #6 by pcharra

fisharebest wrote: The English wikipedia page says it is Primidi 21 Messidor (!!!)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar


Are you sure? ...
Screenshot from your link.


That said, why not take the date of the event converted to Gregorian calendar to determine the anniversary date ?
22 messidor Year III => July 10, 1795 => anniversary on July 10 each year.

Patrick Charra
webtrees 2.1.16 [url] genea.charra.net [/url]
OVH PHP 8.0.19 MySQL 5.7.41
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #7 by Jackie

fisharebest wrote: Anniversaries are calculated according to the calendar in which they were recorded.

Today is (or would be) 22 Messidor CCXXI

Hence today is the anniversary of an event recorded on 22 Messidor III.


Hi,

TODAY would not be and would never be such date ! Why would you use this calendar at all for 2013? To my knowledge, this calendar was used only between 1792 and 1806. Today IS 12 juillet 2013 (12 July 2013) !!
Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by Jackie.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • fisharebest
  • Away
  • Administrator
  • Administrator
More
10 years 8 months ago #8 by fisharebest
Replied by fisharebest on topic "On this day" and French revolutionary calendar
The french wikipedia page highlighted the 24th.
The english wikipedia page highlighted the 21st.

Maybe I didn't look closely.

TODAY would not be and would never be such date ! Why would you use this calendar at all for 2013? To my knowledge, this calendar was used only between 1792 and 1806. Today IS 12 juillet 2013 (12 July 2013) !!


If the Canadian government decided to switch to a new calendar tomorrow, would you stop celebrating your birthday, because the date no longer exists?

I didn't realise that the on-this-day block showed these. Elsewhere in the code, conversions are only shown between 1792 and 1806.

If you think it should not show them, raise a bug report.
If you think the date should be converted differently, we need to agree which algorithm is used for leap years. The (English) wikipedia page lists four alternatives.

Greg Roach - greg@subaqua.co.uk - @fisharebest@phpc.social - fisharebest.webtrees.net

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • pcharra
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Parle un peu français mais très mal anglais...
More
10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #9 by pcharra

fisharebest wrote: If you think it should not show them, raise a bug report.
If you think the date should be converted differently, we need to agree which algorithm is used for leap years. The (English) wikipedia page lists four alternatives.


1) je pense qu'il faut afficher les événements survenus pendant la période d'application du calendrier révolutionnaire comme les autres événements.
2) ce n'est pas un problème de conversion. La date du calendrier révolutionnaire est bien convertie correctement (date à laquelle l'événement est survenu).
3) il suffit juste de prendre cette date convertie comme date anniversaire. Dans l'exemple ci-dessous la date anniversaire est le 14 juillet et non le 15. Cet événement devrait donc apparaître le 14 juillet et non le 15 juillet.

1) I think we should view the events that occurred during the period of the revolutionary calendar as other events.
2) It is not a conversion problem. The date of the revolutionary calendar is converted correctly (when the event occurred).
3) you just need to use this converted date as the anniversary. In the example below the anniversary date is July 14 and not 15. This event should appear on July 14 and not July 15.


Patrick Charra
webtrees 2.1.16 [url] genea.charra.net [/url]
OVH PHP 8.0.19 MySQL 5.7.41
Attachments:
Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by pcharra.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • pcharra
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Parle un peu français mais très mal anglais...
More
10 years 8 months ago #10 by pcharra
I reported a bug #1201306.

Patrick Charra
webtrees 2.1.16 [url] genea.charra.net [/url]
OVH PHP 8.0.19 MySQL 5.7.41

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • fisharebest
  • Away
  • Administrator
  • Administrator
More
10 years 8 months ago #11 by fisharebest
Replied by fisharebest on topic "On this day" and French revolutionary calendar

you just need to use this converted date as the anniversary


I disagree.

The anniversary must always be calculated using the calendar of the event.

I was born on 25 June. In the arabic calendar, I was born on 7 Rabi al-awwal.

So, this year, my birthday was 25 June 2013. (17 Sha'aban 1434)

My birthday is not 7 Rabi al-awwal 1434 (17 February 2013) - even if you are looking at an arabic calendar.

If I had an arabic twin brother, we would celebrate our birthdays on different days.

Greg Roach - greg@subaqua.co.uk - @fisharebest@phpc.social - fisharebest.webtrees.net

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 8 months ago #12 by Jackie
Bonjour,

Les Français ont un jour décidé de créer un nouveau calendrier basé sur l'équinoxe d'automne. L'équinoxe varie d'une année à l'autre. Alors, comme ils ont utilisé un calendrier basé sur quelque chose d'aussi aléatoire et incongru que l'équinoxe, ils doivent accepter le fait que les anniversaires subséquents soient également aléatoires et incongrus.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • pcharra
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Parle un peu français mais très mal anglais...
More
10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #13 by pcharra

Jackie wrote: Bonjour,

Les Français ont un jour décidé de créer un nouveau calendrier basé sur l'équinoxe d'automne. L'équinoxe varie d'une année à l'autre. Alors, comme ils ont utilisé un calendrier basé sur quelque chose d'aussi aléatoire et incongru que l'équinoxe, ils doivent accepter le fait que les anniversaires subséquents soient également aléatoires et incongrus.


Bonjour Jackie
Pardonnez-moi, mais pendant sa période d'application (1792-1806) le calendrier républicain n'est pas aléatoire, pour chaque jour on connaît la conversion exacte avec le calendrier grégorien.
Les questions que vous évoquez (ainsi que Greg) se posent après sa période d'application, si on veut continuer à appliquer ce calendrier.
Mais ce n'est pas du tout le sujet que je soulève.

webtrees permet de saisir les dates au format du calendrier républicain pendant sa période d'application et il effectue et affiche automatiquement la conversion en calendrier grégorien. C'est très pratique, on peut saisir directement les dates des actes de cette période.

Par exemple Marie Rose Eysseric née le 25 messidor an 13



Je saisis @#DFRENCH R@ 25 MESS 13



Et la date apparaît ensuite systématiquement convertie
25 Messidor XIII (14 juillet 1805)



Il n'y a aucune ambiguité ni polémique, il s'agit bien du 14 juillet 1805. C'était aussi le 14 juillet 1805 ce jour-là en Angleterre et au Canada ;-).
Ce que je souhaite simplement c'est que ce jour (dans mon exemple 14 juillet) soit bien conservé comme date anniversaire dans le bloc "ce jour-là" ("On this day").
Ce n'est pas le cas aujourd'hui, car il sort le 15 juillet au lieu du 14.
Au Canada ou en Angleterre vous ne commémorez pas les évènements du 14 juillet 1805 le 15 juillet, mais bien le 14 non?
Et bien je souhaite la même chose.

Patrick Charra
webtrees 2.1.16 [url] genea.charra.net [/url]
OVH PHP 8.0.19 MySQL 5.7.41
Attachments:
Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by pcharra.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • norwegian_sardines
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
More
10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #14 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic "On this day" and French revolutionary calendar
The issue here IS controversial. It is somewhat the same as the "Theory of Relativity".

Consider: IF the "French Republican" calendar was in use today the date of the anniversary would be constant based on the Southward equinox. You would only be looking at the Southward equinox not at anything else around you, not any one elses calendar. You would always have your event on that given day and always calculated with and by the Southward equinox which changes every cycle/year. It can occur at any time from the 22nd to the 24th day of September, but you don't know this because you are not looking at that (their) calendar, HOWEVER, those that are not looking at your calendar but a different one will see your event anniversary as moving around because they have a different relativity, a different reality as it pertains to time.

Look at you Science book and you will see how the "Theory of Relativity" is used in this case.

EDIT: To always have an event occur on a given day in another calendar, you must use that calendar and be part of that reality and time.

Ken
Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by norwegian_sardines.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #15 by Jackie
Bonjour,

Sur FranceGenWeb, on ne liste pas les dates du calendrier républicain mais on les traduit avec les dates compréhensibles par tous. Alors, pourquoi ne pas faire de même ?

On France GenWeb, they list republican dates using gregorian calendar, therefore understandable by everybody. Why don't you do the same?

www.francegenweb.org/~archives/archivesgenweb/?id=adfrance
Attachments:
Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by Jackie.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • phicome
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
10 years 8 months ago #16 by phicome
Je suis cette discussion qui devient surréaliste
Un individu est né le 25 messidor An XIII.

- Dans l'affichage de l'individu, la date de naissance est correcte (14/07/1805)
- Dans le bloc "ce jour là - on this day", la date de naissance est fausse (15/07/1805). Décalage de 1 jour. Pourquoi ?

Google translation :
- In view of the individual, date of birth is correct (14/07/1805)
- In the block "ce jour là - on this day," the date of birth is wrong (15/07/1805). Shift one day. Why?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • norwegian_sardines
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
More
10 years 8 months ago #17 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic "On this day" and French revolutionary calendar
For whatever it is worth, go to www.calendarhome.com/converter/

Enter 1805 July 15 and see the Republican Calendar date.
Enter 2013 July 15 and see the Republican Calendar Date.

They are different. Hope that helps!!

Ken

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • pcharra
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Parle un peu français mais très mal anglais...
More
10 years 8 months ago #18 by pcharra

Jackie wrote: Bonjour,

Sur FranceGenWeb, on ne liste pas les dates du calendrier républicain mais on les traduit avec les dates compréhensibles par tous. Alors, pourquoi ne pas faire de même ?

On France GenWeb, they list republican dates using gregorian calendar, therefore understandable by everybody. Why don't you do the same?

www.francegenweb.org/~archives/archivesgenweb/?id=adfrance

Mais Jackie, webtrees affiche la date en calendrier grégorien, il n'y a pas de problème à ce niveau.
C'est très bien ainsi. Et si on veut on peut saisir la date directement en grégorien....mais on perd une fonctionnalité intéressante de webtrees.



Patrick Charra
webtrees 2.1.16 [url] genea.charra.net [/url]
OVH PHP 8.0.19 MySQL 5.7.41
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • pcharra
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Parle un peu français mais très mal anglais...
More
10 years 8 months ago #19 by pcharra

phicome wrote: Je suis cette discussion qui devient surréaliste
Un individu est né le 25 messidor An XIII.

- Dans l'affichage de l'individu, la date de naissance est correcte (14/07/1805)
- Dans le bloc "ce jour là - on this day", la date de naissance est fausse (15/07/1805). Décalage de 1 jour. Pourquoi ?

Google translation :
- In view of the individual, date of birth is correct (14/07/1805)
- In the block "ce jour là - on this day," the date of birth is wrong (15/07/1805). Shift one day. Why?


Merci Philippe d'avoir résumé si simplement la question.

Patrick Charra
webtrees 2.1.16 [url] genea.charra.net [/url]
OVH PHP 8.0.19 MySQL 5.7.41

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • pcharra
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Parle un peu français mais très mal anglais...
More
10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #20 by pcharra

fisharebest wrote:
I disagree.

The anniversary must always be calculated using the calendar of the event.

I was born on 25 June. In the arabic calendar, I was born on 7 Rabi al-awwal.

So, this year, my birthday was 25 June 2013. (17 Sha'aban 1434)

My birthday is not 7 Rabi al-awwal 1434 (17 February 2013) - even if you are looking at an arabic calendar.

If I had an arabic twin brother, we would celebrate our birthdays on different days.


I disagree.

Marie Rose Eysseric was born on 25 messidor XIII. In the gregorian calendar, she was born on july 14, 1805.

So, this year, in the gregorian calendar, her anniversary was july 14, 2013 and not july 15, 2013.

Patrick Charra
webtrees 2.1.16 [url] genea.charra.net [/url]
OVH PHP 8.0.19 MySQL 5.7.41
Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by pcharra.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Powered by Kunena Forum
}