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TOPIC: Surnames in Portugal and more

Surnames in Portugal and more 4 years 9 months ago #1

  • nunoleite
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Hi!

I have some questions about the definitions of the surnames.

1. I'm portuguese and i would like to tell you how it's the tradition about the surnames in Portugal.
Selecting Surname Tradition Portuguese, you have that "Children take one surname from the mother and one surname from the father.", that's correct, but i can add that "Wives add their husband’s surname."
Example: father surname = Costa and mother surname = Carvalho
So, the children name would be: Mario Carvalho Costa
I don't know how that should be entered but i thing they should appear in both familys. So, something like this... "Mario /Carvalho/ /Costa/" Or in the field surname "Carvalho, Costa" or "Carvalho,Costa"
Am i correct? This is not happening.

2. When i choose surname tradition as portuguese, the field Married Surname disappears form the individual. Why?
This field should be available because they can have a Married Surname too.

3. Using the Married Surname as paternal i can have the Married Surname field available but when i enter the Married Surname the wives loses their surnames. I thing this is not correct.
Example:
Man surname: Costa
Woman name: Maria
Woman Surname: Carvalho
Woman married surname: Costa
So, the Woman married name should be "Maria Carvalho Costa" and not "Maria Costa", because they don't loose her surname, they just add the husbands surname.

4. As conclusion the surname tradition portuguese should be:
Children take one surname from the mother and one surname from the father.
Wives add their husband’s surname.
And the field Married surname should be available.
And the result should be: names surname married surname

Sorry for having so much questions and so much explanations, but i thing it's the better way to help the development of the software. I hope you understand my questions and explanations.

Thanks
Nuno Leite
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Surnames in Portugal and more 4 years 9 months ago #2

  • norwegian_sardines
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Did you read this ? Does it help? wiki.webtrees.net/en/Names:_Advance_Topics#Multiple_Surnames

If not, let us know. You can update it or we can help.
Ken
Last Edit: 4 years 9 months ago by norwegian_sardines.
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Surnames in Portugal and more 4 years 9 months ago #3

  • fisharebest
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I don't know how that should be entered but i thing they should appear in both familys. So, something like this... "Mario /Carvalho/ /Costa/" Or in the field surname "Carvalho, Costa" or "Carvalho,Costa"
Am i correct?

Yes, that is correct.
This is not happening.

Can you tell us what does happen? Tell us exactly what you do, what happens, what you expect to happen.
2. When i choose surname tradition as portuguese, the field Married Surname disappears form the individual. Why?
This field should be available because they can have a Married Surname too.

When I added this function, I was told (by a Portuguese contributor) that you do not change your name when you get married.
3. Using the Married Surname as paternal i can have the Married Surname field available but when i enter the Married Surname the wives loses their surnames. I thing this is not correct.
Example:
Man surname: Costa
Woman name: Maria
Woman Surname: Carvalho
Woman married surname: Costa
So, the Woman married name should be "Maria Carvalho Costa" and not "Maria Costa", because they don't loose her surname, they just add the husbands surname.

In general, they *do* lose their surname. But, they often keep their original surname as an additional *given* name.

This field is simply pre-populated with the most common situation, to reduce typing. You are always expected to check and correct the data that is entered.
4. As conclusion the surname tradition portuguese should be:
....
And the field Married surname should be available.
And the result should be: names surname married surname

Are you speaking for

(a) all Portuguese, or do others have a different opinion
(b) the current situation in Portugal, the historic situation in Portugal, or both
Greg Roach - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. - fisharebest.webtrees.net
Last Edit: 4 years 9 months ago by fisharebest.
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Surnames in Portugal and more 4 years 9 months ago #4

  • nunoleite
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Hi!
Thanks for fast reply from both.
Did you read this ? Does it help? wiki.webtrees.net/en/Names:_Advance_Topics#Multiple_Surnames
Yes, i did read the wiki, but it's a little bit confusing.
In general, they *do* lose their surname. But, they often keep their original surname as an additional *given* name.
Yes, that's right. But what happens is that the married name does not show the surname original from the person.

About the children surnames...
I don't know how that should be entered but i thing they should appear in both familys. So, something like this... "Mario /Carvalho/ /Costa/" Or in the field surname "Carvalho, Costa" or "Carvalho,Costa"
Am i correct?

Yes, that is correct.
This is not happening.
I think that should be automatic populated to appear in both family's.
And i understand that a novice user would just enter the last name as surname, but that's not a big problem. That's acceptable because i understand that's impossible to guess all the possibility's that someone thinks. :)
And the children receiving a mothers and father surname the reality is that the fathers surname is the surname from this point on. So the paternal tradition here is more accurate that the portuguese to be completely correct.

Another thing is that if i personalize the name, when i touch the fields names and surname, all personalization disappears. Example in the married name and surname, if i edit the married name to add the surname, then if i touch the married surname, the personalization disappears. I think this creates confusion to the users as this field doesn't stick.

Another thing that i notice with all this rules and explanations is that this is too difficult for a normal novice user. I think this is too technical and should be more user friendly. What i'm trying to do is to give users to some of my family members for them to help me creating the tree, but they would not know how to enter the data using the slashes, and all the other personalizations.
It's a little bit confusing, because if i enter a names then surname, all is correct and easy, the problem is with the married name because the surname its lost, and the novice user will not understand how to edit the field. And as the Portuguese tradition not even the field is available.

I read that we should use the option in Edit -> Add new name, but again this is something that is a little bit hidden for a novice user. And you tell in the wiki that this is not a standard GEDCOM option. I trying to make this standard and universal.
Using this option when a person has 5 names, we have to type all the name again... I think this will permit too many mistakes. And this should be used in very singular situations.

For a normal novice user entering the names and the surnames and married surnames should do the basic things.

Sorry to write too much ;)
Some times explaining too much turns to be more confusing ;) I hope not.... :)
(b) the current situation in Portugal, the historic situation in Portugal, or both
I think i'm speaking for both, historic and current situation in Portugal.

As conclusion i would use the paternal tradition but the correct use it should be that writing the married surname would create a married name with the name surname married surname.

Thanks
Nuno Leite
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Surnames in Portugal and more 4 years 9 months ago #5

  • norwegian_sardines
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The problem I have with needing or trying to implement a "standard" or "universal" surname entry pattern is that even within a cultural group they (the cultural group) do not always follow the standard universally themselves. This is complicated more by the fact that most genealogy programs only support modern western names and that families sometimes have two ways for addressing themselves 1) to their western friends 2) to their close family and culture. I also see over and over where members of the same family use different conventions and over time things change how they identify themselves. This is even true in modern western surnames. I found in my own family, not to even try to automate the surname tradition because I'm always finding exceptions, and the tradition has changed several times in the past 200 years, so I needed to learn the best way to store the data directly.

So.

First I'd like to understand where the confusion in the wiki appears. I wrote that a long while ago based I my interviews with several people while traveling to Portuguese speaking South America and a Spanish descendent. So I may have only gotten part of the story.

Second it may be better to include some rules of how you see surnames being used and how they differ from western patterns. Include before and after marriage examples. Children, male female derivatives. Subgrouping of culture as they pertain to surnames. What you would do to fix or deal with mixed western and non-western naming standards. (For example, if you pick a non-western standard, how to prevent that standard from being applied universally to all surnames in your database even western or other non-western standards).
Ken
Last Edit: 4 years 9 months ago by norwegian_sardines.
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Surnames in Portugal and more 4 years 9 months ago #6

  • Jackie
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Hello,

Simply modify the *Name* field:


The name field contains the individual’s full name, as they would have spelled it or as it was recorded. This is how it will be displayed on screen. It uses standard genealogical annotations to identify different parts of the name.

The surname is enclosed by slashes: John Paul /Smith/
If the surname is unknown, use empty slashes: Mary //
If an individual has two separate surnames, both should be enclosed by slashes: José Antonio /Gómez/ /Iglesias/
If an individual does not have a surname, no slashes are needed: Jón Einarsson
If an individual was not known by their first given name, the preferred name should be indicated with an asterisk: John Paul* /Smith/
If an individual was known by a nickname which is not part of their formal name, it should be enclosed by quotation marks. For example, John "Nobby" /Clark/.
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Surnames in Portugal and more 4 years 9 months ago #7

  • norwegian_sardines
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Thanks Jackie. Simple and to the point. Why didn't I write it that way? ;-)
Ken
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Surnames in Portugal and more 4 years 9 months ago #8

  • Jackie
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norwegian_sardines wrote:
Thanks Jackie. Simple and to the point. Why didn't I write it that way? ;-)

:-)

Your explanation was also accurate.

Actually, I would be interested to see in GEDCOM format what nunoleite meant... I was not sure of it.
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Surnames in Portugal and more 4 years 9 months ago #9

  • nunoleite
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Hi!

Writing directly in the Name field that would be a solution. But there are problems.

I will explain.

For example let's suppose that i enter all the name directly in the name field. Then i had to explain all my users that to enter surnames they have to enclose in slashes. Note that thaty are all novice users and lot's above 50 years old.
Then if some one accessed the person that has the name field personalized and enter the field names, all the personalization would disappear. Losing all that was entered directly in the name field.
I think this would break everything about the simplicity when entering data.
So, the field name and others that get data from other fields are not good for personalization, because they are always getting data from other fields and all personalizations would be lost. Like this, is very easy to make mistakes and to broke data entered before.

Sorry about my bad english, but i hope you understand what my concern is.

If just entering data in the names and surname fields do the correct behavior, no one has to think about technical problems (using slashes to have the surname, and other stuff), because everything is done correctly and automated. And i think this part is correct. The only problem is the married surname, because it's not added to the full name it just looses the original surname. And here in Portugal the wives maintain their surname as a given name and add the husband surname.

Thanks
Nuno Leite
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Surnames in Portugal and more 4 years 9 months ago #10

  • vytux
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I reported the 'loss of customization' bug in git tracker last week I think. It has been annoying me for a while now.
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