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TOPIC: webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis"

webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #1

  • tws
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Just a question. You have many installations in Germany, where the "Verein für Computergenealogie" is providing a web service called "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" or translated "The Historic Gazetteer". This service provides information about locations and cities for many european countries.

See here: gov.genealogy.net/search/index

Are there any plans or is there a shared desire of the user community to get some integration established?

This would simplify the search for locations, coordinates, allow query of historic structures (boundaries in Europe have changed many times in some regions).
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #2

  • mp
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Good idea. I did something similar for another genealogical web tool ...

But if you want to store some of the informations from there (f.i. a link over the GOVid) you need at least a shared note for places. This and the possibility to export the Google map coordinates via Gedcom would be a good (great) extension of webtrees.

Martin
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #3

  • fisharebest
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I always record the current name for places in the PLAC field.

The historic place name will be in the SOUR.

I *think* that this approach is used by the majority of users. (I don't really know).

Would this change mean that we would all need to change to storing historic place names in the PLAC field, so that it can be linked to a historic gazetteer?
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #4

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Do any of these historic gazetteers include the *boundaries* for historic places?
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #5

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You can find more information on GOV here:

wiki-de.genealogy.net/GOV

It contains also many locations in the US and Australia



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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #6

  • Peter_S
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Hello together,

I also recommend the proposal to integrate GOV into webtrees because I think, the integration will bring a lot of advantages for our genealogic work.
With GOV we have the possibility to use foreign or former names or to use past affiliation (administrative, law, church, etc.) of places.

This is helpful because – as an example -in hisorical sources we will find the former name of a place and not the current one. With GOV we will get additional information about the place, links to descriptions, to articles and also to genealogical sources with an assignment to the place.

GOV contains churches, church districts, places, districts, regions, etc.. Internally, an entry is commonly referred to as "GOV object" with an own GOV-ID. The objects itself are structured in a hierarchal sequence by links. That means for example, a town is related to a county, the county to a state, the state to a country. The hierarchal sequence or place srtucture can also depend on different time periods.

Especially in Europe we had many affiliation changes and genealogist have to know about such complex historic topics, to be able to find the relevant archive, holding the archival sources of the research place.

To store all these information in webtrees the _LOC-records can be used – see following proposal. For a comprehensive location management the use of location records in accordance with GEDCOM 5.5 1 is permitted.

In the definition of RECORD in GEDCOM Standard 5.5.1 the location record <<LOCATION_RECORD>> can be added as follows:

RECORD:=
[
n <<FAM_RECORD>> {1:1}
|
n <<INDIVIDUAL_RECORD>> {1:1}
|
n <<MULTIMEDIA_RECORD>> {1:1}
|
n <<NOTE_RECORD>> {1:1}
|
n <<REPOSITORY_RECORD>> {1:1}
|
n <<SOURCE_RECORD>> {1:1}
|
n <<SUBMITTER_RECORD>> {1:1}
|
n <<LOCATION_RECORD>> {1:1}
]

The location record is referenced by the following line, subordinated to PLAC:
+1 _LOC @<XREF:_LOC>@

The location record itself is structured as follows:
0 @<XREF:_LOC>@ _LOC
1 NAME <PLACE_NAME> {1:M}
2 DATE <DATE_VALUE> {0:1}
2 _NAMC <PLACE_NAME_ADDITION> {0:1}
2 ABBR <ABBREVIATION_OF_NAME> {0:M}
3 TYPE <TYPE_OF_ABBREVIATION> {0:1}
2 LANG <LANGUAGE_ID> {0:1}
2 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
1 TYPE <TYPE_OF_LOCATION> {0:M}
2 DATE <DATE_VALUE> {0:1}
2 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
1 _POST <POSTAL_CODE> {0:M}
2 DATE <DATE_VALUE> {0:1}
2 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
1 _GOV <GOV_IDENTIFIER> {0:1}
1 MAP {0:1}
2 LATI <PLACE_LATITUDE> {1:1}
2 LONG <PLACE_LONGITUDE> {1:1}
1 _MAIDENHEAD <MAIDENHEAD_LOCATOR> {0:1}
1 EVEN [<EVENT_DESCRIPTOR>|<NULL>] {0:M}
2 <<EVENT_DETAIL>> {0:1}
1 _LOC @<XREF:_LOC>@ 0:M
2 TYPE <HIERARCHICAL_RELATIONSHIP> {1:1}
2 DATE <DATE_VALUE> {0:1}
2 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
1 _DMGD <DEMOGRAPHICAL_DATA> {0:M}
2 DATE <DATE_VALUE> {0:1}
2 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
2 TYPE <TYPE_OF_DEMOGRAPICAL_DATA> 1:1
1 _AIDN <ADMINISTRATIVE_IDENTIFIER> {0:M}
2 DATE <DATE_VALUE> {0:1}
2 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
2 TYPE <TYPE_OF_ADMINISTRATIVE_IDENTIFIER> {1:1}
1 <<MULTIMEDIA_LINK>> {0:M}
1 <<NOTE_STRUCTURE>> {0:M}
1 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
1 <<CHANGE_DATE>> {0:1}

with
<ADMINISTRATIVE_IDENTIFIER>:=
Identifier for a location with the intention of an administrative authority, e.g. community identifier.

<DEMOGRAPHICAL_DATA>:=
A number of objects, during an ascertainment, e.g. the count of households.

<GOV_IDENTIFIER>:=
The official GOV code.

<HIERARCHICAL_RELATIONSHIP>:=
[POLI|RELI|GEOG|CULT]
in order to differentiate political ( administrative ), religious, geographical or cultural associations. For details on the TYPE of the quoted superior object the <TYPE_OF_LOCATION> regulates in the called record.

<MAIDENHEAD_LOCATOR>:=
The maidenhead code.

<PLACE_NAME_ADDITION>:=
Add-on to describe the location exactly, e.g. "an der Oder" or "am Main" (in Germany there are "Frankfurt an der Oder" /at river Oder/ and "Frankfurt am Main" /at river Main/)

<POSTAL_CODE>:=
The official ZIP code.

<TYPE_OF_ADMINISTRATIVE_IDENTIFIER>:=
TBD

<TYPE_OF_DEMOGRAPICAL_DATA>:=
[ HSHO | CITI ] means: household | resident
Type the demographic data for a place.

<TYPE_OF_LOCATION>:=
House, District, Borough, Village, Town, City, County, Street, Cemetry, Estate, Settlement, ...


With this concept the usage of the location management is encapsulated. All additional data are stored in an own record structure and linked by a subordinated _LOC tag to PLAC.

1 BIRT
2 DATE 1 JAN 1647
2 PLAC Augsburg, Bavaria, Germany
3 FORM City, State, Country
3 _LOC @P1234@


How could it look like in the UI of webtrees?

Following an example for an event.

Current UI:




Future UI:





In the proposal we see the place data 3 times:
1. from the PLAC tag. The PLAC tag is used (as today) to despribe the place in a way, we want to see it in lists, reports, charts. etc.
2. historical name from _LOC record
3. current name from _LOC record

Best regards
Peter
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #7

  • HonkXL
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I think, supporting GOV would be a great idea. For me, it would be ok to have a possibility to search start a search in the GOV database and a field where the result (the GOV-ID) is stored and a link to link back to GOV later.
At moment I write the GOV-IDs to comments sometimes.
My homepage: www.weiland24.de
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #8

  • Peter_S
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fisharebest wrote:
Do any of these historic gazetteers include the *boundaries* for historic places?
Hi Greg,

what do you mean with boundaries for historic places? To you mean different affiliation of the places allong the time line.

Best regards
Peter
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #9

  • mp
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Thanks Peter. Your explanation is perfect.

Similar discussions we can found here: www.webtrees.net/index.php/en/forum/help...30854-plac-and-notes
or here: github.com/fisharebest/webtrees/issues/782 .

Martin
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #10

  • fisharebest
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> The location record itself is structured as follows:

Where did you get this?

I can only find (google can only find!) wiki-de.genealogy.net/GEDCOM_5.5EL - which is different.
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #11

  • Peter_S
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fisharebest wrote:
Where did you get this?

see here: wiki-en.genealogy.net/GEDCOM/PLAC-Tag

This is an English extract of the results about the discussions of the PLAC tag. For results of other tags see: wiki-en.genealogy.net/Category:GEDCOM-Tag

If you have further questions don't hesiate to ask me. I am - as an author of a German genelaogic program (GedTool) - a member of the GEDCOM-L team.

Best regards
Peter
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #12

  • fisharebest
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There are two different standards.

1) wiki-de.genealogy.net/GEDCOM/PLAC-Tag
2) wiki-de.genealogy.net/GEDCOM_5.5EL

These are different.

Your example uses (1).

The example file wiki-de.genealogy.net/GEDCOM_Musterdatei/Musterdatei uses (2).

Who decides which is correct / official?
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #13

  • Peter_S
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The _LOC structure described in wiki-de.genealogy.net/GEDCOM_5.5EL was created in 2004 as an agreement of 6 authors (Ages!, DYNAS-TREE, GES-2000, GF-Ahnen, PC-Ahnen GEDCOM2Map)..

The _LOC structure in wiki-de.genealogy.net/GEDCOM/PLAC-Tag was described 10 years later as a result of a discussion with 23 German speaking authors of genealogy programs.

Both definitions are quite similar.

GEDCOM 5.5EL (2004)GEDCOM-L proposal (2014)
0 @P65@ _LOC0 @<XREF:_LOC>@ _LOC
1 NAME <PLACE_NAME> 1:M1 NAME <PLACE_NAME> {1:M}
2 DATE <DATE_VALUE> 0:12 DATE <DATE_VALUE> {0:1}
2 NAMC <PLACE_NAME_ADDITION> 0:12 _NAMC <PLACE_NAME_ADDITION> {0:1}
2 ABBR <ABBREVIATION_OF_NAME> {0:M}
3 TYPE <TYPE_OF_ABBREVIATION> {0:1}
2 _LANG <LANGUAGE> 0:12 LANG <LANGUAGE_ID> {0:1}
2 SOUR <SOURCE_CITATION>2 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
1 TYPE <TYPE_OF_LOCATION> {0:M}
2 DATE <DATE_VALUE> {0:1}
2 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
1 _FPOST <FOKO_POSTCODE> 0:M1 _FPOST <FOKO_POSTCODE> {0:M}
2 DATE <DATE_VALUE> 0:12 DATE <DATE_VALUE> {0:1}
1 POST <POSTCODE> 0:M1 _POST <POSTAL_CODE> {0:M}
2 DATE <DATE_VALUE> 0:12 DATE <DATE_VALUE> {0:1}
2 SOUR <SOURCE_CITATION> 0:M2 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
1 _GOV <GOV_IDENTIFIER> {0:1}
1 _FSTAE <FOKO_TERRITORY_IDENTIFIER> 0:11 _FSTAE <FOKO_TERRITORY_IDENTIFIER> {0:1}
1 _FCTRY <FOKO_STATE_IDENTIFIER> 0:11 _FCTRY <FOKO_STATE_IDENTIFIER> {0:1}
1 _FOKOID <FOKO_IDENTIFIER> 0:1
1 MAP <GEOGRAPHICAL_COORDINATES> 0:M1 MAP {0:1}
2 TYPE <GEOGRAPHICAL_COORDINATE_TYPE> 1:1
2 LATI <PLACE_LATITUDE> {1:1}
2 LONG <PLACE_LONGITUDE> {1:1}
1 _MAIDENHEAD <MAIDENHEAD_LOCATOR> {0:1}
1 EVEN <EVENT_DETAIL> 0:M1 EVEN [<EVENT_DESCRIPTOR>|<NULL>] {0:M}
2 <<EVENT_DETAIL>> {0:1}
1 _LOC @<XREF:_LOC>@ 0:M1 _LOC @<XREF:_LOC>@ 0:M
2 TYPE <HIERARCHICAL_RELATIONSHIP> 1:12 TYPE <HIERARCHICAL_RELATIONSHIP> {1:1}
2 DATE <DATE_VALUE> 0:12 DATE <DATE_VALUE> {0:1}
2 SOUR <SOURCE_CITATION> 0:M2 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
1 _DMGD <DEMOGRAPHICAL_DATA> 0:M1 _DMGD <DEMOGRAPHICAL_DATA> {0:M}
2 DATE <DATE_VALUE> 0:12 DATE <DATE_VALUE> {0:1}
2 SOUR <SOURCE_CITATION> 0:M2 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
2 TYPE <TYPE_OF_DEMOGRAPICAL_DATA> 1:1
1 _AIDN <ADMINISTRATIVE_IDENTIFIER> 0:M1 _AIDN <ADMINISTRATIVE_IDENTIFIER> {0:M}
2 DATE <DATE_VALUE> 0:12 DATE <DATE_VALUE> {0:1}
2 <SOURCE_CITATION> 0:M2 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
2 TYPE <TYPE_OF_ADMINISTRATIVE_IDENTIFIER> 1:12 TYPE <TYPE_OF_ADMINISTRATIVE_IDENTIFIER> {1:1}
1 <<MULTIMEDIA_LINK>> 0:M1 <<MULTIMEDIA_LINK>> {0:M}
1 <<NOTE_STRUCTURE>> {0:M}
1 <<SOURCE_CITATION>> {0:M}
2 <SOURCE_CITATION> 0:M1 <<CHANGE_DATE>> {0:1}

The example you mentioned uses the latest version. I know this, because I am the author of the example. :-)

But both versions are not a mandatory standard. It is a voluntary agreement between the participating authors to use the described definitions when implementing such functions in their program.

Best regards
Peter
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #14

  • fisharebest
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> I know this, because I am the author of the example

If you have the ability, then perhaps you should update the wiki? Google can only find the "wrong"/"old" version.

> 1 _FSTAE <FOKO_TERRITORY_IDENTIFIER> {0:1}
> 1 _FCTRY <FOKO_STATE_IDENTIFIER> {0:1}

Is this a typo?

In Gedcom 5.5.1, STAE = state and CTRY = country (territory).
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 10 months ago #15

  • Peter_S
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fisharebest wrote:
>
Is this a typo?
You are right, it is.

We discussed it today in the GEDCOM-L mailing list and we will delete the FOKO-relevant tags from the _LOC structure. We will do this because FOKO is obsolete and will be not supported anymore in future.

Best regards
Peter
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webtrees and "Das Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis" 2 years 8 months ago #16

  • ric2015
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I've had something similar in mind for some time now ('easy' integration of GOV data). I have now created a (prototypical) webtrees module that enhances places with historical and current GOV data. The data is displayed in a replacement tab for the 'Facts and Events' tab; the UI is similar to what has been suggested above:

Peter_S wrote:
Future UI:

Currently, you have to enter the GOV ids manually, once for each place name. Alternatively, ids for specific events may be set via a custom _GOV tag under the respective PLAC tag. The GOV data is then retrieved via the GOV webservice interface and cached locally in additional webtrees tables (I'm not sure it is useful to store this information redundantly in the Gedcom itself).

You can download the module, and access a webtrees demo server with this module enabled, here: www.cissee.de.

Any thoughts or suggestions for immediate improvements?

Best Regards
Richard
Richard

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Custom modules (Extended Relationships, Gov4Webtrees, Shared Places) available at cissee.de
Last Edit: 2 years 8 months ago by ric2015. Reason: new version with some bugfixes and improvements
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