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Question Question for the dutch users

  • Lars1963
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1 year 2 months ago - 1 year 2 months ago #1 by Lars1963
Question for the dutch users was created by Lars1963
I started the work for the new naming logic for the Dutch language which Greg is introducing. So far the new system is allready working in 2.1.6 for English and French.

I need a opinion of the Dutch for the naming scheme for grandparents, great-grandparents and the generations above.

The official definition as used by the Nederlandse Genealogische Vereniging and Bureau voor Familiegeschiedenis can be found here:
nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_benamingen_voor_generaties
As you can see, there is a specific term for every generation up to the 513th. The first 4,5 or 6 terms might more or less been common known. For the next generations this surely is a point of discussion.

The other method is more or less like the English one and would be like:
vader / grootvader / overgrootvader for the first three generations. After that we would add a extra "over-" for every generation. This would end up in something like "over-over-over-over-overgrootvader" and so on. This of course would become more intransparent for every added generation.

As a alternativ we could go for "4 / 5 /6 maal overgrootvader" and so on.

My question for you: which method of the 3 described ones would you prefer to be used by webtrees?
Last edit: 1 year 2 months ago by Lars1963.

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1 year 2 months ago #2 by Sir Peter
Replied by Sir Peter on topic Question for the dutch users
I‘d prefer a simplified approach.

English: 2x greatgrandfather
German: 2x Urgroßvater
Dutch: 2x overgrootvader

This will work for many if not all languages and require only the translation of greatgrandfather.

Peter

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1 year 2 months ago #3 by TheDutchJewel
Replied by TheDutchJewel on topic Question for the dutch users
I prefer a combination of the former and latter:
- the names for the generations according to the list mentioned
- nx great-grandfather

For example: stamvader (7x overgrootvader)

With a configuration option to choose which variant to show, something like in the Vesta Classic L&F module.

• webtrees 2.0.19 (later 2.0.x versions have a different markdown implementation)
  + XAMPP 8.2.12 with PHP 7.4.33 + Rural theme + Vesta Classic L&F & Ext. Relationships + other modules
• latest webtrees 2.1.x (only for testing and presentation) + PHP 8.2.x

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  • bertkoor
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1 year 2 months ago #4 by bertkoor
Replied by bertkoor on topic Question for the dutch users
How I learned it:
Grootvader, overgrootvader, betovergrootvader, betbetovergrootvader, betbetovergrootvader, betbetbetovergrootvader.

Then for practical uses it stops: just forefather. But that is impractical, you want to know the number of generations. Our language does not cater for that.

The problem with n-times overgrootvader is a fuzzy definition. The great-grandfather of my great-grandfather is not 2x great-grandfather, is it?

stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13

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  • Lars1963
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1 year 2 months ago #5 by Lars1963
Replied by Lars1963 on topic Question for the dutch users

The problem with n-times overgrootvader is a fuzzy definition. The great-grandfather of my great-grandfather is not 2x great-grandfather, is it?

You have a point there, but as per definition the generations allways start with the probandus auf a tree (as in the sosa numbering system). From this person on you count up or down. webtrees uses this too. This Person is set in the basic config of the tree.

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1 year 2 months ago #6 by bertkoor
Replied by bertkoor on topic Question for the dutch users
* Vader
* Grootvader
* Overgrootvader
* Betovergrootvader
* Betbetovergrootvader
* 3xBetovergrootvader
* 4x etc

stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13

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  • Lars1963
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1 year 2 months ago - 1 year 2 months ago #7 by Lars1963
Replied by Lars1963 on topic Question for the dutch users

* Vader
* Grootvader
* Overgrootvader
* Betovergrootvader
* Betbetovergrootvader
* 3xBetovergrootvader
* 4x etc

I've never heard or read this multiple "bet". I couldn't find any evidence for this as a common use. As written here: www.yory.nl/vader-van-je-betovergrootvader/ it is not correct either.

Still, I must admit that the use of the official terms is neither common knowledge nor widely used. So the question remains: will wt use the practical terms as in English (multiple "great-") and thereby use the short notation (x times)? Or use the official terms?
Last edit: 1 year 2 months ago by Lars1963.

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1 year 2 months ago #8 by JustCarmen
Replied by JustCarmen on topic Question for the dutch users
I think we should use the Dutch terms as mentioned in the article of Yolanda Lippens (yory website) or in this Wikipedia article nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_benamingen_voor_generaties


Carmen
Designer of the JustLight theme (comes with a light and dark color palette), Fancy Imagebar, Fancy Research Links and Fancy Treeview for webtrees 2


Check my website at www.justcarmen.nl

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  • bertkoor
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1 year 2 months ago - 1 year 2 months ago #9 by bertkoor
Replied by bertkoor on topic Question for the dutch users
Link: www.yory.nl/je-stamvader-is-niet-je-oudste-voorvader/

Wie is de vader van je betovergrootvader?
We kennen allemaal de termen grootouders, overgrootouders en betovergrootouders. Maar daarboven wordt het lastiger en vervalt men in de fout van over-over-overgrootvader of bet-bet-betgrootvader. Hiermee raak je snel de draad kwijt. Gelukkig kan je de officiële benamingen dankzij mijn eenvoudige OSSEE truc snel uit je hoofd leren, lees hier hoe je dat doet.


There's no right or wrong here. In language it's simple: what most people do is right. The author says "error" because there is an agenda: pushing of another system, and you get lost with counting indeed.

What triggers me here is the word "official". Sorry, but it is not. Somebody has come up with a new system. Very good, but there are multiple and none are really official.

It can become "de facto" standard, if most genealogy programs use it though. So go ahead...

stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13
Last edit: 1 year 2 months ago by bertkoor.

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  • Lars1963
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1 year 2 months ago - 1 year 2 months ago #10 by Lars1963
Replied by Lars1963 on topic Question for the dutch users
@Bert. I use "official" in the sense that the two major Dutch organisations for genealogy as well as the major Dutch website are using it as there "official" or standard guidelines. If not following them, then who to follow?

I fully agree with you, there's no "official" in the sense of "by law". But standards where definied over times in every field of human life, think e.g. of the size of paper (A0 - A8) or the standards for measurement etc. Or for that matter: GEDCOM 5.5.1, 7.x, 8.x . So maybe it's time to start using this standard for wt as well (at least for the Dutch language)?

BTW. I recall that these generation terms where also used in my major "History" in school, back in the late seventies und early eighties. So they are not really new, they are only not common knowledge.

Maybe the idea of TheDutchJewel, to add a option in the control panel for using one of them, can be realised.

Edit: I just found this in German www.alexander-stolpmann.de/Genealogie%20...eren%20Sprachen.html
and in Dutch www.uitdeoudekoektrommel.com/genealogisc...uders-en-generaties/
Last edit: 1 year 2 months ago by Lars1963.

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1 year 2 months ago #11 by Franz Frese
Replied by Franz Frese on topic Question for the dutch users
In germany the terms from generation -3 to +3 are common usage. All other you can do with number of times x Ur (also 2 x Ur)

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  • Lars1963
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1 year 2 months ago - 1 year 2 months ago #12 by Lars1963
Replied by Lars1963 on topic Question for the dutch users
Thank you all for your opinions.

I've decided to go to for the "x times greatparent" after the 4th ancestor for now. Why? I feel I'm not skilled enough yet to get the OSSEE-scheme as a dynamic method in php working. Maybe later on, I will create a custom module or integrate the other terms. And because its the usual method in most languages.

So it will be:
Code:
-? x achterkleinkind -3 achterkleinkind -2 kleinkind -1 kind 0 PROBANDUS 1 ouder 2 grootouder 3 overgrootouder 4 betovergrootouder ? x overgrootouder
Last edit: 1 year 2 months ago by Lars1963.

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1 year 2 months ago #13 by fisharebest
Replied by fisharebest on topic Question for the dutch users
The new code puts the relationship name logic into the language modules.

Modules can have configuration options.

Therefore you could add a config option to choose between the different naming conventions.

Greg Roach - greg@subaqua.co.uk - @fisharebest@phpc.social - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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