Question Surname input with slashes or without (suggestion)

I think that requirement for input surname with John /Doe/ is stupid. My users not understanding this and sense of this.. forgoting, etc.
The system of webtrees should omit this in my opinion, or should option in panel as with slashes or without as suggestion.
From my side should be to inputs as "Name" and "Surname" (then last add /Doe/ to the database as gedcom want)







 

I’m not sure how much you or you users understand GEDCOM or the data entry process in webtrees, but I think that the way it work right now is correct.

If you want to enter the Given Name and Surname separately then just enter them in the fields provided and they will be duplicated to the NAME field.

Most data entry people never need to enter anything into the NAME field, but under some specific circumstances the NAME field does not have the exact data as in the Surname field, so two data entry fields is required. For many of my relatives I have different values in the Surname and between the “/“ marks.

Search this forum and the GEDCOM design forum for better understanding with regard to names. 

They totally not understanding and I see some duplication, how they combining changes here. Ale I'm not soo advanced even read docs around.

I'm refer to this due dissonance under views as images, where input have /Doe/ and watch 1st image.. 1st belt not have slash, 2nd have.. then users trying edit to fix, then have in base /Doe or Doe/ Doe Doe// //Doe : )

Also due translations.. where 1st input is Name Surname but in description only Name and then 5th input surname.. then real Surname is here..
That is dissonance for users and standards.

I’m not sure I understand what you have written!

In GEDCOM the NAME tag is superior to the parts underneath.  Not all names end with a surname so webtrees and GEDCOM need to be told what value is the surname, this is why GEDCOM requires the surname to be surrounded by “/“.  These marks can’t be added automatically!

If your data entry people need to learn how to enter names correctly many administrators of webtrees create an FAQ page to teach their data entry people how to use the interface.

In inputs fields webtrees have just "Name" not "Name Surname" or "Name /Surname/" by this users puting just "Name" and 5th input is "Surname" but 5th input not suggesting a "/Surname".
Watch images

Also if GEDCOM need.. no problem but GUI of webtrees not need.. system can operate this, then users are free from know the GEDCOM standards and complication for system and admins.

To @admin it be great if WYSWIG posts can turn on for language dictionary functions and resize component with right size and preview of post.

If the title of the field of “Name” is not to your liking you can create a different translation that displays “Given /Surname/“.  Translations are already part of webtrees!

OR tell your data entry people to read the help text by clicking on the “?” at the end of the “Name” line.  For additional information about entering a surname they can read to help text for that as well.

You use the "John /DOE/" individual as an example.

This is a bad example.

Normal users will not see the slashes. They will type surnames and given names, and webtrees will create the "name with slashes" automatically.

The John Doe individual is created for new trees only. The administrator will usually change it (not a user), or will replace it by importing a GEDCOM file.

So the experience for normal users will be different.

Ok, technicaly convinced but from user experience not : )
I'll try more often indicate the "?" icon abot for user and must change translation as "Name /Surname/" coz this is disonanse.
I think devs should respect suggestion abut this in translations. With this indication for user can be solved basic problems in begin phase of each new user that don't know gedcom and not want learn about.. coz why.. they want just put data as simple is possible.

 

You seam to have PHP programming experience, if you don’t need to ever enter a NAME with different surname information, then write a module that disables the Name field for data entry just display!

I was with idea that information about "?" can be in articles, but each tree family need them individually duplicated
And many other new articles from users can hide this info for new users.
I think that some webpage as "FAQ" can be good in future for whole community around webtrees users in system. Eg. link around "Search" and then can be explained basic issues as repeated. As I know my users, they are not enough experienced to understood all in case system can be easy to fill data.

Is this a another problem when individual have Name Surname, and manager added again from right? Why we need exactly many names with this same 1 NAME on rows?

0 @X1@ INDI
1 NAME John /DOE/
1 SEX M
1 BIRT
2 DATE 24 APR 1856
2 NOTE Edit this individual and replace their details with your own.
1 OBJE @X2@
1 CHAN
2 DATE 28 JAN 2024
3 TIME 15:14:33
2 _WT_USER genealogy
1 NAME John2 /DOE2/
1 NAME Jonh3 /DOE3/





Again have problem around, coz some of individuals are with // or / etc. I

1.  Check for errorsGEDCOM errorsNo errors have been found.

But.. it's error if / and not closed //

2.Data fixesJohn2 DOE2/ was changed for John2 DOE2 //

I'm still on position that GUI should be far from GEDCOM syntax, and GUI should only prepare GEDCOM syntax by inputs and prepared functions as standard require. Only modification in EDIT can give option to edit GEDCOM as for advanced user around.



 

Is this a another problem when individual have Name Surname, and manager added again from right? Why we need exactly many names with this same 1 NAME on rows?

I'm trying very hard to understand what the new issues is that you are having!

It is perfectly legal and very useful to have multiple NAME tags in GEDCOM.

I use it all the time to document a couple of conditions.
1) People with name changes during their life
2) Various name spellings found in sources



 

Coz hard to understand what users made here.
But looks that they fill "Name" eg. Peter and "Surname" not in this same line and input but in other input as Surname, then individuals was for user without surname, then they add Surname as Name, but it is a multiplied like:

1 NAME John /DOE/

1 NAME John2 /DOE2/
1 NAME Jonh3 /DOE3/

etc. (as uper example)

Then if some user did not find right individual add next similar and I have in data base duplicated objects as individual to resolve and merge.. what is pain..
It's going about user intuition. Take this as feedback how this look after system is installed for some work. Anyway.. happy users working and filing data.. and relations is far from what they expected and also system and gedcom standards. I think this is happen due GUI and concept of the whole process.

Soo.. I'm replicating steps to understood how system works around and to recognize issue and fix after this.

If your users are entering data incorrectly or inconsistently and have not been trained on how to enter data then that is on you!

If they don't understand the correct way to enter names into the database to meet your needs and the needs of the database you need to help them understand how it should be done.  When I was a software engineer and  database designer.  The first thing we did before opening the new software to general use was to have a training session on how to use the system and introduce the user base to data entry customs.

It is important for your users to know what can be done with the software in the area of NAMEs.  It is what many of the entries in this forum do to teach the various administrators of webtrees how the system works so they can educate their users.

For example:  I teach my users to enter Norwegian Names in a particular way to so that they are all consistent.  We use the NAME tag and SURN tags differently than western naming standards (Norwegians were not required to have surnames until 1923) but we still want to take advantage of sorting families together.  This can also be true for many Eastern European names were the surname is gender specific. We want to display the correct surname for the individual but count surnames correctly.  In other naming systems individuals may have two surnames and these need to be written and displayed differently.

The NAME tag is used to display the name, the SURN tag is used to sort the individual correctly.  This is very often different in various cultures.

Yeah.. I hear about no Surname.. in Scandinav culture more Iceland.. "Son of a baker of bakers.." : )
I see here more structural problem around operation on objects/individuals.. all is poor to serve this with typical needs. Hmm.. this can be good, but need more features and other conception to work than exist in my opinion.

You have a distinct advantage over me in that you are (it seams) a PHP programmer.  My computer language skills are set with older languages that do not include PHP and Jason, you can "Branch" webtrees to create a new and different path to support your user base if you feel the need!

You mind "branch" or "fork project"?
The PHP is nice and simple for this type project in case I like more Python. I was idea to support this, but watching in depth and I see main concept problems.. many due GEDCOM..
In depth of mysql alsoo is noneffective in scaling, eg. usage Xid as string not int where X can be column and id int. Then whole links are not so easy to reconnect with families, etc.

Yes in GitHub "Fork"!

Historically, before webtrees was PHPGEDView.  Was designed to view GEDCOM files.  The design for webtrees has always been and will always continue to support the current GEDCOM Standard.  If this changed to something else I would bolt from the project as I'm a firm believer in GEDCOM as the universal and only way to transfer data between applications.  Any deviation from the GEDCOM Standard is not a good thing.

A lot of software claims to support GEDCOM, but they don't do it very well.  They usually support a subset of GEDCOM and misuse the design making transfer to other software impossible.  webtrees is one of the few applications that allows people to bring their GEDCOM from their desktop application to the web with little or no work.

If you have problems using webtrees and you think it is because of GEDCOM, rather than writing code snippets to change the application tell us what the question you have with the webtrees work flow, someone has probably had the question before, and we can advise you.

I've been using GEDCOM since the early 1980's and have advised the designers on several topics.  I've used probably a dozen different genealogy programs in the past 40 years, written some software myself, volunteered at a genealogy resource center and found that webtrees has provided the best support for my genealogy work and the work I do for others out of all the other programs!  

Good to know.

From my side, the GEDCOM is like EDIFACT.. or more X12
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X12_EDIFACT_Mapping
But it is just a dictionary for parameters. Te clue is relation, a gedcom doing something bad and hard here due static.. more like file.. as clear time ago.
webtrees is very primitive, more like simple GUI and view.. no have regret here.. it's open source, but hard to trust in this all in state as I see how working.. - it working when no complication. It looks not symetric functions that doing user thinking can.. but can't due lack of functions. It's more like not so smart product owner/manager milestones delivery or no right road map around. And implementation is basic, conservative for gedcom standards not user habitat.
Around 1999 I used genery but I lost data..