Question spouse versus partner

I’m rather against changing the current terms.

I don’t know to what extent webtrees is used by novices who don’t understand what they are creating, which is two fold.

1) A relationship between two individuals, the Family_Record. This relationship can include anything from traditional marriages, to non-married individuals, to same sex relationships (married or not), to animal husbandry genetic management.
2) A new Individual_Record optionally of the opposite sex!

No concept (1or 2 words) can describe #1 out of the box in all languages or customs, therefore training and help text is needed here to guide novice users.

A funny aside:  My wife used to refer to her business associate as her “partner” in conversations with clients.  At a party I was introduced as her husband to one client, and they showed surprise because before I was introduced they thought my wife was gay! 

There are six options here.

We can add a spouse/partner (married/unmarried) who is male/female/unknown.

All six options would take us to the same page, and all six options would be available on that page.
The only difference would be the default values for the SEX and MARR inputs.

This question has been asked several times, so it clearly a confusing issue for some people. It isn't necessarily obvious that the function you need is available at a link that says something else.

I guess one option could be a "split button" - one that has a default option, but also other options.
See getbootstrap.com/docs/5.3/components/dropdowns/#split-button for an example.

The question would be how to label the options. In particular, we'd need to be aware of translations.
e.g. in English, a male/female/unknown partner is always called a partner. In other languages, these may be three different words.

For example

Add a husband
Add a wife
Add a spouse
Add a partner (m)
Add a partner (f)
Add a partner (u)

Would this work? Is there another/better way to label these options?

While I personally like it the way it is, what if …

Change it to a drop-down that launches the pop-up when a selection is made.  The choices might be
wife
husband
partner
spouse
or whatever list makes sense to satisfy everyone—OK, that’s not possible, but maybe we could satisfy most.

And maybe on the edit/add pop-up, if the sex is ‘U’ it could be rendered bold and red or larger or something to attract attention. Or when Save is clicked, there could be a pop-up asking “should sex be left as ‘U’?"

Please don't make simple things complex. webtrees is great, but already it is not for non-prepared ordinary user. Only few from my tree members whom I gave access for edit the records dare to make changes. Only some learned how to add persons and edit their names. The rest operations I have to do by myself, because they can not understand how it works. Even correctly adding pictures is too complex for most of members. 

What is difference between husband/wife and spouses in webtrees?  
''Partners'' are same gender sexual parnters (gays or lesbis)? 

Those 4 'types'' are more than enough. If a couple can not born a baby with their genes - it is an exception, not  a rule, from the genealogy point of view (which is science recearching genes transfer from generation to generation). I know that it is 'bon ton' nowadays to accept multigenders, but only male-female relations leads to new generations creation.  

in Russian there is a fine line between a husband/wife and a spouse. Generally, if one talk about his/her man/woman in marriage, he should say 'husband' or 'wife'. But if somebody asks about someones husband/wife, he should say 'spouse'.
F.e. 'It is my wife' and 'How is your spouse?'

That's it. No difference from genealogical point of view.

What is difference between husband/wife and spouses in webtrees?
''Partners'' are same gender sexual parnters (gays or lesbis)?

In my opinion it is less about how webtrees sees the difference between husband/wife, partner, same sex, cohabitation, or any other adverb to describe the relationship, they are all stored the same way in GEDCOM.

The real issue here is that people use different words (depending on language, custom, religious viewpoint, etc.) to describe the relationship. One person’s definition of partner/wife/spouse is not the same as another’s and then trying to translate these words to another language without losing the intended definition (from a database point of view) can get muddled!

EDIT:  Remember as well, not everyone ​​​​​​ uses genealogical relationships to produce a family.  Some people are family historians, and don’t just record the passing of genetic material!

> What is difference between husband/wife and spouses in webtrees?

This is the sex of the person, as recorded in their genealogy data.

There are 3 options in GEDCOM 5.5.1 (M/F/U)
There are 4 options in GEDCOM 7.0 (M/F/U/X)

U = unknown, X = other

webtrees uses the term "spouse" for both U and X.

> ''Partners'' are same gender sexual parnters (gays or lesbis)?

No. In webtrees "partner" means "not married".

Same-sex married couples have either 2 husbands or 2 wives.

It is confusing in English because we use the same word "partner" for male/female/unknown.

Other languages have different words. For example, in French we have "Concubin", "Concubine" and "Concubin(e)"

My 2 cents:

1) No, genealogy is not just about genes and blood, otherwise - for instance - we wouldn't track adoptions either. Let's not inject semantics into this conversation.

2) No, the suggestion of "partner" has nothing to do with gay couples. It's a way to record couples that are/were *not* married. Husbands and wives gain these titles (and the title of "spouse") by having an official wedding. Many people (more in the present, I agree), are couples (also with kids) while not being married. This is what we are trying to address. 

3) By extension, the term "partner" *can* act as a gender neutral form, which is a bonus. We agree that not all languages work well with gender neutral forms, though partner seems to be widely accepted across countries. More discussion can be done here.

At the end of the day, what we should care about is the usability. webtrees needs to abstract some concepts and still resolve those in proper GEDCOM output, but that doesn't prevent the interface to have more nuance. 

2) No, the suggestion of "partner" has nothing to do with gay couples. It's a way to record couples that are/were *not* married. Husbands and wives gain these titles (and the title of "spouse") by having an official wedding. Many people (more in the present, I agree), are couples (also with kids) while not being married. This is what we are trying to address. 

Yes and no! I agree that “partner” is not just for gay couples, but “not married” is a slippery definition, primarily when we talk about “official wedding”. Historically not all marriages are official in terms of recording by the church or government. Some people are considered “married” (common law) by just living together for a specified time or personal agreement! Not all couples in remote areas are married in a church/government building and either wait for a traveling priest or just “are married” by acknowledgment of their community!


We have to be careful about assigning our cultural terms to other cultures!  Is something “official” only if it is recorded?

I fully agree, great additions! I think that providing users with more (controlled) flexibility, without overloading them with complexity is the way to go.

I agree with Greg, but 

Same-sex married couples have either 2 husbands or 2 wives.

is not precise. HUSB and WIFE are in a family {0:1}, so if there is a same-sex couple there is still one HUSB and one WIFE. Two or more HUSB are not allowed, two or more WIFE are not allowed in a GEDCOM FAM record.

The GEDCOM standard 7.0 notes

The FAM record may also be used for cultural parallels to this, including nuclear families, marriage, cohabitation, fostering, adoption, and so on, regardless of the gender of the partners. Sex, gender, titles, and roles of partners should not be inferred based on the partner that the HUSB or WIFE structure points to.
The individuals pointed to by the HUSB and WIFE are collectively referred to as “partners”, “parents” or “spouses”.

    

The individuals pointed to by the HUSB and WIFE are collectively referred to as “partners”, “parents” or “spouses”.

I agree, the issue is finding a way to make sure that these terms can be translated into other cultural terms that everyone can understand without saying “well my understanding of the relationship is not covered by the word used on my screen!”

This is not easy, and I don’t have a great or even good answer! Each word used in the quote does not encompass all uses in English let alone in translation! So… Pick one and hope it lessens the misunderstanding!

We have three things
- a complex world as  norwegian_sardines  showed (different understanding of sex, marriage, roles, genetical or social families, ...)
- GEDCOM standards we are following
- webtrees GUI.
The user has to be able to use the webtrees GUI to model the complex world with the restrictions by the GEDCOM standard. We cannot hide in webtrees the complex world or guide him through all the complex cases. We cannot hide the restrictions and the philosophies in the GEDCOM standard. But we can make data input as easy as possible. 

The GEDCOM standard allows 4 types of sex for a person, the user should be able to select them. The standard does not support the change of sex during life, so webtrees does not support this too. If necessary the user has to use a NOTE.

THE GEDCOM standard supports married and unmarried families and even same-sex married and unmarried couples, so webtrees should support this too. GEDCOM uses in that case still HUSB and WIFE, but says that those labels are not related to the sex of a person anymore, so webtrees should not restrict the user interface to husband and wife, it should use more general words.

I like "partners" for unmarried persons in a family or as a general term if we do not know if they are married or not  (ie before defining the FAM record). I agree that it is necessary for translation to use "partner (M)", "partner (F)" and "partner (U/X)" if we intend to define the sex of a partner. If webtrees knows that a couple is married and that they are of different sexes, webtrees should use "husband" and "wife" to be as specific as possible.
 

This is getting overly complex. Simplification:

Link text: Add a relationship (easily translatable)
Form fields for SEX and either MARR or _NMR must be mandatory. Then the user will have to make two decisions. That’s it.

I prefer a change, because "Add a husband/wife" is not that intuitive for new users.
When I began with webtrees, I asked myself: Where to add a partner who is not married? I searched for that button and did not find it.
In my opinion relationship is ok, but partner is more intuitive, because a partner is a person. A relationship is a state.

What do you think of combining partner and husband/wife. There is enough space in the line for the following:
- Add a partner (mostly a husband)
- Add a partner (mostly a husband) using an existing individual
- Add a partner (mostly a wife)
- Add a partner (mostly a wife) using an existing individual

I would also like to argue for a simple and transparent solution.
- Only one link on the family page: "Add spouse / partner".
- After that, a dialogue for the gender
- Followed by a dialogue asking whether a new person or an existing person should be connected. In the second case, a check can be made against the gender and a warning issued if there is a discrepancy. A warning because gender can change over the lifespan.

The definition of whether a spouse or unmarried partner results from the subsequent maintenance of events and facts.
 

AlexKalopsia wrote:

My 2 cents:

1) No, genealogy is not just about genes and blood, otherwise - for instance - we wouldn't track adoptions either. Let's not inject semantics into this conversation.

Sure, but adoptions are rather exceptions, not a rule. 

2) No, the suggestion of "partner" has nothing to do with gay couples. It's a way to record couples that are/were *not* married. Husbands and wives gain these titles (and the title of "spouse") by having an official wedding. Many people (more in the present, I agree), are couples (also with kids) while not being married. This is what we are trying to address. 

Isn't 'Marriage-Civil marriage' intended for that case ?
 

 

I agree with Greg, but 

Same-sex married couples have either 2 husbands or 2 wives.

is not precise. HUSB and WIFE are in a family {0:1}, so if there is a same-sex couple there is still one HUSB and one WIFE. Two or more HUSB are not allowed, two or more WIFE are not allowed in a GEDCOM FAM record.

The GEDCOM standard 7.0 notes

The FAM record may also be used for cultural parallels to this, including nuclear families, marriage, cohabitation, fostering, adoption, and so on, regardless of the gender of the partners. Sex, gender, titles, and roles of partners should not be inferred based on the partner that the HUSB or WIFE structure points to.
The individuals pointed to by the HUSB and WIFE are collectively referred to as “partners”, “parents” or “spouses”.

Sure. Partners include both spouses and husband/wife. Spouses include husband/wife. 
Persons can be spouses/husband/wife if they are married, with or without church or civil records. Then they are 'family'.

If partners just live together for some time, then they can not be considered as family, just cohabitants. Usually, in this relationship, if one partner have kids, then another partner doesn't have any obligations and rights for that kids. 

I don't know how to distinguish ''civil marriage without any record'' and ''cohabitation''. Often, it is hard to do even for civil courts, and they use neighbors evidences to set the type of relatioships.

marwel wrote:

In my opinion relationship is ok, but partner is more intuitive, because a partner is a person. A relationship is a state.

This is exactly what we do. We add a relationship, a FAM record. Only if we add a new individual in the process, it‘s about an individual.

Nope:

wikipedia wrote: A civil marriage is a marriage performed, recorded, and recognized by a government official.[1] Such a marriage may be performed by a religious body and recognized by the state, or it may be entirely secular.

Not to be confused with:

wikipedia wrote: Common-law marriage , also known as non-ceremonial marriage,[1][2] sui iuris marriage, informal marriage, de facto marriage, or marriage by habit and repute, is a legal marriage despite non-compliance with the requirements for a statutory marriage, at least in the jurisdictions where marriage can still be contracted this way.
[...]
The term "common-law marriage" is often used incorrectly to describe various types of couple relationships, such as cohabitation (whether or not registered) or other legally formalized relations. Although these interpersonal relationships are often called "common-law marriage", they differ from its original meaning in that they are not legally recognized as "marriages", but may be a parallel interpersonal status such as a "domestic partnership", "registered partnership", "conjugal union" or "civil union". Non-marital relationship contracts are not necessarily recognized from one jurisdiction to another.