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file Question gedcom structure for child having two parents families

  • avdl
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3 years 3 months ago #1 by avdl
After many tries in the past year and not finding a "perfect" one, i wonder how you solve this common situation in your trees

Desiderius Josephus LOMBART was born on December 2nd, 1853, child of her mother Augustina Theresia Josepha LOMBART's one-parent family

For years later, her mother Augustina Theresia Josepha LOMBART gets married with Jean Baptiste LELOU. The new spouses declare that Desiderius Josephus LELOU is their child and Desiderius Josephus LOMBART is now named Desiderius Josephus LELOU

in gedcom that gives:
0 @X1@ INDI
1 NAME Desiderius Josephus /LELOU/
2 TYPE change
2 GIVN Desiderius Josephus
2 SURN LELEU
1 NAME Désiré Joseph /LOMBART/
2 TYPE birth
2 GIVN Désiré Joseph
2 SURN LOMBART

In fact, naming makes no problem.

Now for FAMC family
0 @X1@ INDI
1 NAME Desiderius Josephus /LELOU/
2 TYPE change
2 GIVN Desiderius Josephus
2 SURN LELEU
1 NAME Désiré Joseph /LOMBART/
2 TYPE birth
2 GIVN Désiré Joseph
2 SURN LOMBART
1 FAMC @X2@

where X2 is
0 @X2@ FAM
1 WIFE @X3@
1 CHIL @X1@

Must X1 be also related with X4, family of her mother and her husband, and how should this relation be described in X4 ?
In other terms must X1 have 2 FAMC (one towards X1 and one towards X4 ?
or must X1 have only one FAMC towards X2 and a one ADOP like
1 ADOP
2 DATE 27 JUL 1857
2 PLAC xxxxxxx
2 FAMC @X4@
3 ADOP BOTH

Thanks for your advices. One i decided, i might come back to you to guess how you operate those relations with webtrees.
André

webtrees 2.1.16 with Vesta Extended Relationship, Fancy Research Links, Faces - Ghezibde is hosted by webtrees hosting

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  • norwegian_sardines
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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 3 months ago #2 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic gedcom structure for child having two parents families
Let me make sure I understand your situation, I think the attached diagram is what I understand.


If this is true, Then I see two ways to deal with this, depending on what you are recording.
  1. If you are recording only biological relationships then the family group "A/D" would not be recorded in your database, only family group "A/B" are blood relations to person "C" . This is common for people who only follow blood lines!
  2. If you are recording all relationships regardless of blood lines then you must create two family groups, more on this to follow! This is common for "family historians"

Like you said the Name changes are probably handled, not a problem!

Ken
Last edit: 3 years 3 months ago by norwegian_sardines.

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  • bertkoor
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3 years 3 months ago #3 by bertkoor
"Must" is a strong word, but you can put in a pedigree adopted and an event adopted by father. Adopted by both is not the case here.
I would hesitate to create the single-parent family with his mother, unless I'd like to make it very obvious he was born before the marriage.

For me it sounds wrong to record an adoption with a parent that recognises him as a legitimate son.
No doubt there are questions about who the true biological father is, but we probably cannot solve that mystery anymore.

stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v2.1.20

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  • norwegian_sardines
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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 3 months ago #4 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic gedcom structure for child having two parents families
Even though the Mother is a One-Parent family you still need to create a family for her and her child, then if the mother married a the non-biological man this would (if you are recording like option 2) need a second family group "A/D".

This is about what you want to have for GEDCOM of the Child. It was put together fast so I might have missed something!

1 NAME Desiderius Josephus /LELOU/
2 TYPE change
1 NAME Désiré Joseph /LOMBART/
2 TYPE birth
1 FAMC @A/B@
2 PEDI birth
1 FAMC @A/D@
2 PEDI adopted
1 ADOP
2 FAMC @A/D@
3 ADOP HUSB


NOTE: the "3 ADOP HUSB" since the biological mother would not be adopting her own child but the "husband" to the 2nd family unit would have done the adopting!

Ken
Last edit: 3 years 3 months ago by norwegian_sardines.

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3 years 3 months ago #5 by Sir Peter

The new spouses declare that Desiderius Josephus LELOU is their child...

Maybe you make this more complex than it is. To me this sounds like the biological father married the biological mother and both declare that the son in question is their biological son. To me that doesn't sound like an adoption - more like an acknowledgement of paternity.

I'd record this as a regular family and make a note providing the details.

Peter

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  • norwegian_sardines
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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 3 months ago #6 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic gedcom structure for child having two parents families
Obviously if family politics come in to play then you have to record things differently. Personally I try to record the real history and then try to hide the display of some things using "Restrictions" on some data. Not acknowledging things correctly however leads to historical inaccuracy. I have a case in my wife's family where everyone believes that one child was born 11 months after the supposed "father" died!

Ken
Last edit: 3 years 3 months ago by norwegian_sardines.

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  • avdl
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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 3 months ago #7 by avdl
@bertkoor
I agree,
BUT, adoption is not the right term.
The father and the mother declared the previous child is their, that's not an adoption but something like a "recognition". I did not find any gedcom tag for this rather common relation. Is there one you know ?

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Last edit: 3 years 3 months ago by avdl.

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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 3 months ago #8 by avdl
@ Norvegian_sardines ( www.webtrees.net/index.php/en/forum/help...rents-families#87952 )
This is exactly right.
I opt for the number 2 way : described relation with the monoparental family of the mother with a name typed 'Name at birth'

And create a second relation with the family of the mother and her husband.
Do i need to only create an adoption fact in the child's gedcom tag ?
Do i have to link the child to his mother's second family ?
Should i do both ?

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Last edit: 3 years 3 months ago by avdl.

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  • avdl
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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 2 months ago #9 by avdl
@Sir Peter

perhaps yes, perhaps no.
Marriage is rather late and, what ever it was and one'll never know, the birth act does not give the father's name and says "illegitimate child"
Should the child's tree for this linkage only show the relation to the mother ?

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Last edit: 3 years 2 months ago by avdl.

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  • norwegian_sardines
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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 3 months ago #10 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic gedcom structure for child having two parents families
Timing is everything! You said:

Marriage is rather late

, does this mean the marriage occurred after the child became an adult (very often 18 years old)?

If this is the case then I would never connect the child to the new "family" by marriage! Even if the new husband called the child (son/daughter). And therefore no adoption occurred! I guess I am a little lost as to when and how things occurred.

Does the child actually have an official name change as recorded by the appropriate body? If so then some form of official family relationship occurred. GEDCOM is rather poor at non-LDS-church related events. But if the child actually changed its name to the new husband and they were under age, then something legal had to have happened similar to an adoption. If the child used the new husbands name after they became an adult (probably to gain some favor) then this is most likely not an adoption, but just a name change.

You asked:

Do i need to only create an adoption fact in the child's gedcom tag ?
Do i have to link the child to his mother's second family ?

If you want to visualize the relationship in reports and on screen them the relationship must have a link to the family, in both directions, child to family and family to child!

Ken
Last edit: 3 years 3 months ago by norwegian_sardines.

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3 years 3 months ago #11 by a2v
Hello everybody,

And what do you think about the tag ASSO ?
It could link the children and the stepfather if there's no official adoption.

0 @X1@ INDI
1 NAME Desiderius Josephus /LELOU/
2 TYPE change
2 GIVN Desiderius Josephus
2 SURN LELEU
1 NAME Désiré Joseph /LOMBART/
2 TYPE birth
2 GIVN Désiré Joseph
2 SURN LOMBART
1 ASSO @X_from_Jean_Baptiste_LELOU@
2 RELA unofficial stepfather

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  • norwegian_sardines
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3 years 3 months ago #12 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic gedcom structure for child having two parents families
Could be used as well! Better than "Adoption" when there was no adoption! I've used that to indicate "Mentor", "Godfather", or _ASSO to indicate witnesses of weddings and the like!

Most Likely it will not transfer via GEDCOM to other programs.

Ken

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3 years 3 months ago #13 by fisharebest

The new spouses declare that Desiderius Josephus LELOU is their child...

Maybe you make this more complex than it is. To me this sounds like the biological father married the biological mother and both declare that the son in question is their biological son. To me that doesn't sound like an adoption - more like an acknowledgement of paternity.

I'd record this as a regular family and make a note providing the details.

This is how I interpreted the scenario.

It mirrors my own circumstances. My first birth certificate says "father unknown". Some years later, my parents marry, and the births register is updated. I now have a second birth certificate with a father and a new name.

I just record this as one family, with a note.

Greg Roach - greg@subaqua.co.uk - @fisharebest@phpc.social - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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  • avdl
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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 3 months ago #14 by avdl


This is how I interpreted the scenario.

It mirrors my own circumstances. My first birth certificate says "father unknown". Some years later, my parents marry, and the births register is updated. I now have a second birth certificate with a father and a new name.

I just record this as one family, with a note.

It seems this affirmation does not reflect real family history/genealogy through it reflect official linkages.
One example : at the marriage of his mother, the child is said son of both newly married parents, He was son of his mother and was named by his mother's family name.

Link is done in webtrees and father is 11 years old at his child's birth.
In fact, legally the child is the son of his mother's husband
From a genealogical point of view, he is probably not.

I'd like to keep track of both families, the one with child and mother, the other with child, mother and father.
This child has two FAMC, how does gedcom norm deal with this ?

I'll try ASSO to get around this case. (have more than one hundred such situation in Ghezibde tree and many editor asking me how they should deal with)

webtrees 2.1.16 with Vesta Extended Relationship, Fancy Research Links, Faces - Ghezibde is hosted by webtrees hosting
Last edit: 3 years 3 months ago by avdl.

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  • norwegian_sardines
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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 3 months ago #15 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic gedcom structure for child having two parents families
avdl asked:

This child has two FAMC, how does gedcom norm deal with this ?

Perfectly fine! You can have as many FAMC connections as is appropriate, this is how Birth Parents and Adoption Parents work (two FAMC)!

If the child was part of the "Foster System" and they had new "Foster Parents" every few years, they could have multiple FAMC! It is then up to the recording person to include them or not!

Some people want to include grandparents or aunt/uncle who took care of a child after the parents died or were incarcerated for a long time.

Ken
Last edit: 3 years 3 months ago by norwegian_sardines.

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6 months 4 weeks ago #16 by frank.chauvallon@hotmail.fr
Replied by frank.chauvallon@hotmail.fr on topic gedcom structure for child having two parents families
It seems to me this question can be answered quite simply using the Gedcom architecture.
Indeed, although this is not common, the Gedcom standard allows to have more than one FAMC.
So, in that case, the solution is to create 2 families Y and Z, the 2 families the child (X) belongs to and to declare both of them in the Gedcom file as follows :
0 @X@ INDI
1 FAMC @Y@  
1 FAMC @Z@
However, it is not guaranteed that the software you are using, although it should, can handle such a situation. 

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