Web based family history software

Question Problem with 2.1.19

  • fa10175
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2 weeks 6 days ago #1 by fa10175
Problem with 2.1.19 was created by fa10175
my gedcom in webtrees 2.1.8 is like this:

1 NAME AaaaA /ZzzzZ/
2 TYPE BIRTH
2 GIVN AaaaA
2 SURN ZzzzZ ZzzzY ZxxxX ZxxxW

1 NAME AaaaB /ZzzzY/
2 TYPE BIRTH
2 GIVN AaaaB
2 SURN ZzzzZ ZzzzY ZxxxX ZxxxW

1 NAME AaaaC /ZxxxX/
2 TYPE BIRTH
2 GIVN AaaaC
2 SURN ZzzzZ ZzzzY ZxxxX ZxxxW

they are 3 brothers with bad birth registration.

while testing webtrees 2.1.19 with the Modules: jc-fancy-imagebar, jc-fancy-treeview, vesta, faces, fan-chart, pedigree-chart, descendants-chart, hh_extended_family

I noticed that I was having problems with the fan-chart, pedigree-chart, descendants-chart modules and the list of families and individuals.

I contacted Magicsunday who explained that the names in 2 SURN should now be described as a list with , as separator.
even the first in the list must correspond to 1 NAME /..../

that's a lot of work, especially to match 1 NAME /..../ with the first in the 2 SURN list
I wonder :)) what 1 NAME will be used for

So I created 3 trees in webtrees 2.1.19

Here are the gedcoms
 

File Attachment:

File Name: TreeWithComma.ged.txt
File Size:1 KB

 

File Attachment:

File Name: TreeWithCo....ged.txt
File Size:1 KB

 

File Attachment:

File Name: TreeWithou....ged.txt
File Size:1 KB


now here are the screenshots
 

File Attachment:

File Name: TreeWithoutComma.zip
File Size:235 KB

 

File Attachment:

File Name: TreeWithComma.zip
File Size:307 KB

 

File Attachment:

File Name: TreeWithCo...SURN.zip
File Size:287 KB


you can see that there's always a problem either in Fan Chart or in individuals or in descendants

What gedcom structure should we have to avoid any problems in all these displays?

While waiting for a solution, I'm still using webtrees 2.1.18. I hope that my gedcom will evolve easily to go to 2.1.19, and that the programs will be corrected.

Thank you for your help.

 

- Nginx 1.22.1
- PHP 8.2.7
- MariaDB 10.11.6
- Webtrees 2.1.18
- Raspberry Pi 5
Modules : jc-fancy-imagebar, jc-fancy-treeview, vesta, webtrees-faces , webtrees-fan-chart, webtrees-pedigree-chart, webtrees-descendants-chart, hh_extended_family

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2 weeks 6 days ago - 2 weeks 6 days ago #2 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Problem with 2.1.19

I contacted Magicsunday who explained that the names in 2 SURN should now be described as a list with , as separator.



Yes, this is a true statement as outlined in the GEDCOM v5.5.1 specification.

Surname or family name. Different surnames are separated by a comma.



You Asked:

what 1 NAME will be used for?



This is how it works in the Name listing.   I can't speak to the charts, I don't use them.
The NAME tag is the "Display" value.
The SURN tag is the "Index" value.


 

Ken
Last edit: 2 weeks 6 days ago by norwegian_sardines.

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2 weeks 6 days ago #3 by fa10175
Replied by fa10175 on topic Problem with 2.1.19

Yes, this is a true statement as outlined in the GEDCOM v5.5.1 specification.Surname or family name. Different surnames are separated by a comma.


maybe but look at my test results documents to see the problems.
you can test gedcom and see these problems

- Nginx 1.22.1
- PHP 8.2.7
- MariaDB 10.11.6
- Webtrees 2.1.18
- Raspberry Pi 5
Modules : jc-fancy-imagebar, jc-fancy-treeview, vesta, webtrees-faces , webtrees-fan-chart, webtrees-pedigree-chart, webtrees-descendants-chart, hh_extended_family

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2 weeks 6 days ago #4 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Problem with 2.1.19
Why does your individuals have three surnames?  Are your individuals from a naming custom that has several surnames, like the Spanish, Portuguese naming customs?

 

Ken

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2 weeks 6 days ago - 2 weeks 6 days ago #5 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Problem with 2.1.19

maybe but look at my test results documents to see the problems.
you can test gedcom and see these problems


I don't have time to test these, BUT I can tell you that the tests you have tried are not very good?

For example in the "Name List" starting a SURN tag with several surnames that start with the same first letter will look odd! For example: 2 SURN Smith, Simon will put the person twice on the same "S" page. But, 2 SURN Smith, Olsen will put the person once on each page for "S" and "O".

Again I can't speak to the Fan-Chart, I don't use it, but the concept of the first surname in the SURN tag list makes some sence here!

Ken
Last edit: 2 weeks 6 days ago by norwegian_sardines.

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2 weeks 6 days ago - 2 weeks 6 days ago #6 by fa10175
Replied by fa10175 on topic Problem with 2.1.19
in the birth certificates, the 3 children were registered with 3 different spellings of the father, creating 3 branches with different spellings.
to have a link with the different spellings, I used SURN to list the spellings of all the descendants.
NAME is the name in the branch

- Nginx 1.22.1
- PHP 8.2.7
- MariaDB 10.11.6
- Webtrees 2.1.18
- Raspberry Pi 5
Modules : jc-fancy-imagebar, jc-fancy-treeview, vesta, webtrees-faces , webtrees-fan-chart, webtrees-pedigree-chart, webtrees-descendants-chart, hh_extended_family
Last edit: 2 weeks 6 days ago by fa10175.

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2 weeks 6 days ago - 2 weeks 6 days ago #7 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Problem with 2.1.19

in the birth certificates, the 3 children were registered with 3 different spellings of the father, creating 3 branches with different spellings.
to have a link with the different spellings, I used SURN to list the spellings of all the descendants.


 

GEDCOM suggest that:

Names of individuals are represented in the manner the name is normally spoken, with the family name, surname, or nearest cultural parallel thereunto separated by slashes


Personally what I would do considering that I only use the "Name List" not the fan chart.

1) Record the individual with the NAME tag as used on the birth certificate, If and only if they used the different spelling! otherwise use a common spelling with notes.
2) Set the SURN tag to a single common spelling for the family as a whole.

This way all brothers will be found under the same indexed surname in the "Name List".

It is possible that the fan-chart does not follow the "NAME tag" is the display value and the "SURN tag" is the index value rule I outline above! This would need to be reviewed!

Ken
Last edit: 2 weeks 6 days ago by norwegian_sardines.

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2 weeks 6 days ago - 2 weeks 6 days ago #8 by fa10175
Replied by fa10175 on topic Problem with 2.1.19

2) Set the SURN tag to a single common spelling for the family as a whole.

This way all brothers will be found under the same indexed surname in the "Name List".



that means what do I take from SURN
  1.               2 SURN ZzzzZ, ZzzzY, ZxxxX, ZxxxW
  2.              2 SURN ZzzzZ              OLDEST name
  3.              2 SURN ZzzzY             branch name
but we can no longer keep track of how surnames are written

if I enter , the list of individuals displays 17 names instead of 5, see screenshots

- Nginx 1.22.1
- PHP 8.2.7
- MariaDB 10.11.6
- Webtrees 2.1.18
- Raspberry Pi 5
Modules : jc-fancy-imagebar, jc-fancy-treeview, vesta, webtrees-faces , webtrees-fan-chart, webtrees-pedigree-chart, webtrees-descendants-chart, hh_extended_family
Last edit: 2 weeks 6 days ago by fa10175.

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2 weeks 6 days ago - 2 weeks 6 days ago #9 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Problem with 2.1.19

but we can no longer keep track of how surnames are written


What is your reason to track how the name was written if they never used that name in real life?

Almost all of my Norwegian Ancestors had different spelling of the names depending on who wrote it down. For Example: If a Danish scribe wrote the entry, a "CH" was a common used spelling for Christine, But if a Norwegian scribe wrote the entry it was spelled Kristine with a "K".

The same is true with surnames, Germans spelled the name one way, Danes spelled the name a different way, and the Norwegian (modern spelling) is yet another way.

I use notes and images of the documents to explain the various spellings, but "normalize" the SURN and GIVN spelling to the common use for indexing, and decide if the spelling in the NAME tag needs to be "as written" or "normalized" based on use and my knowledge of the family history for display.

Anything that needs explaining (why I normalized the surname, or changes over time) I write notes for the "NAME" tag, capture an image of the document where the name was found!

Ken
Last edit: 2 weeks 6 days ago by norwegian_sardines.

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2 weeks 6 days ago - 2 weeks 6 days ago #10 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Problem with 2.1.19
 Are you running the "Standard" fan-chart or have you installed someones upgraded module?

I don't see in my simple test on the demo system where the SURN tag is used in the fan-chart.

 


 

Ken
Last edit: 2 weeks 6 days ago by norwegian_sardines.

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2 weeks 6 days ago - 2 weeks 6 days ago #11 by fa10175
Replied by fa10175 on topic Problem with 2.1.19
i use fan-chart from Magicsunday because more performance

- Nginx 1.22.1
- PHP 8.2.7
- MariaDB 10.11.6
- Webtrees 2.1.18
- Raspberry Pi 5
Modules : jc-fancy-imagebar, jc-fancy-treeview, vesta, webtrees-faces , webtrees-fan-chart, webtrees-pedigree-chart, webtrees-descendants-chart, hh_extended_family
Last edit: 2 weeks 6 days ago by fa10175.

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2 weeks 6 days ago #12 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Problem with 2.1.19
Then you need to talk to them about the difference "Standard" vs "Magic Sunday" in the fan-chart!  If the NAME tag is not used but the SURN tag is used, then I can't help!

My understand is that the NAME tag is for display and the SURN tag is for indexing.

Ken

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2 weeks 6 days ago #13 by fa10175
Replied by fa10175 on topic Problem with 2.1.19
I'm trying to see what I can do about your suggestion to include the name at birth in NAME and SURN.
thanks Ken

But I think there's something to analyze in relation to my tests.

- Nginx 1.22.1
- PHP 8.2.7
- MariaDB 10.11.6
- Webtrees 2.1.18
- Raspberry Pi 5
Modules : jc-fancy-imagebar, jc-fancy-treeview, vesta, webtrees-faces , webtrees-fan-chart, webtrees-pedigree-chart, webtrees-descendants-chart, hh_extended_family

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2 weeks 6 days ago #14 by Franz Frese
Replied by Franz Frese on topic Problem with 2.1.19
Die Glockengießerfamilie Delapaix Von Pa u I Mi c hel s
Die Forschung über die Familie Delapaix ist .deshalb schwierig, weil die Schreibweise des Namens außerordentlich mannigfaltig ist. Die uns heute so geläufige Genauigkeit der Familiennamen bei Standesämtern, Gerichten und sonstigen Behörden warden früheren Schreibern von Urkunden und Kirchenbuchführern unbekannt. Es wurde meistens nach dem Grundsatz verfahren: »Schreibe wie du sprichst!" Wenn das schon bei rein .deutschen Namen zu Abweichungen führte, so erst recht, wenn so ein armer Stadtschreiber oder Pfarrer sich mit einem fremdsprachigen Namen abgeben mußte, .der in der Landesprache anders lautete als er geschrieben wurde. So ist es erklärlich, daß der Name Delapaix bisher in folgenden Formen gefunden wurde: So ist es erklärlich, daß der Name Delapaix bisher in folgenden Formen gefunden wurde:

The Delapaix family of bell founders
By Pa u I Mi c hels
Researching the Delapaix family is difficult because...
The spelling of the name is extremely varied. That's how we are today
Common accuracy of family names in registry offices, courts and
Other authorities were unknown to the previous writers of documents and church record keepers. The principle was mostly followed:
"Write like you speak!" If only with purely German names
Deviations led, especially when such a poor town clerk or
Pastor had to deal with a foreign language name that was in the
The language in the local language was different than how it was written. So it is understandable
that the name Delapaix has so far been found in the following forms: So it is understandable that the name Delapaix has so far been found in the following forms:

Delapaix - de la Pai - de Lapais - de Lapaix - de Lapaire - .de la Pax - de la Paeix - Delape -de Lappe - de Lapi - de Lapei - de Lapey - de la Pei - Lapei - Lapeij - Lapay - Lappe - Lappen - Lappeix - Lappeij - u. a. m., sogar Proix!

at  www.lwl.org/westfaelische-geschichte/txt/wz-9696.pdf

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2 weeks 6 days ago - 2 weeks 6 days ago #15 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Problem with 2.1.19

I'm trying to see what I can do about your suggestion to include the name at birth in NAME and SURN.
thanks Ken

But I think there's something to analyze in relation to my tests.


Since you have not provided the actual surnames I cant advise or provide some suggestions. However, in Polish and many other Eastern European naming customs the surname for females are different than males by changing the last letter(s) of the name.

For example, -SKI, -CKI and -DZKI (male), become -SKA, -CKA, -DZKA (feminine). Therefore, the wife of Piotr MALINOWSKI might have the last name MALINOWSKA.

Therefore GEDCOM allows for you to enter a SURN of "MALINOW" for both males and females.

1 NAME Piotr /MALINOWSKI/
2 SURN MALINOW
1 SEX male

1 NAME Helga /MALINOWSKA/
2 SURN MALINOW
1 SEX female

HOWEVER....

First things first. Remove the MagicSunday version of the fan-chart and use the "Standard" version, before changing any of your underlying GEDCOM!

Check the chart and the "Name List" against what you have entered, and work with what I have said to make them understandable, then when you are satisfied, Enable the other Fan-Chart and note the difference.

Ken
Last edit: 2 weeks 6 days ago by norwegian_sardines.

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2 weeks 6 days ago - 2 weeks 6 days ago #16 by HRN
Replied by HRN on topic Problem with 2.1.19
The problem in how names are now displayed in magicsunday's charts has been reported, and is now flagged as "bug".
The bug also breaks the layout of charts when name is missing 
We just have to wait for an update.
github.com/magicsunday/webtrees-descendants-chart/issues/56
 

webtrees 2.1.20 at visitusinmaputo.com/webtree PHP 8.1.27
webtrees 2.1 dev on local Wampserver 3.3.2 PHP 8.2.13/8.3.0 MySQL 8.2.0
Last edit: 2 weeks 6 days ago by HRN.

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2 weeks 6 days ago - 2 weeks 6 days ago #17 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Problem with 2.1.19

The problem in how names are now displayed in magicsunday's charts has been reported, and is now flagged as "bug".
The bug also breaks the layout of charts when name is missing 
We just have to wait for an update.
github.com/magicsunday/webtrees-descendants-chart/issues/56  

A NAME tag should never be missing in any GEDCOM it is required!  Unless the individual does not have a known name!

However the PERSONAL_NAME_PIECES (SURN, GIVN, etc.) are not required and are only used, if present, for indexing!

Ken
Last edit: 2 weeks 6 days ago by norwegian_sardines.

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2 weeks 5 days ago #18 by fa10175
Replied by fa10175 on topic Problem with 2.1.19
If SURN is defined as a list of names and must be separated by a comma instead of a space, the display of names in the "List of individuals" looks a little strange, even 'buggy'.
With this gedcom, which has 5 people, the "List of individuals" displays 17. 
Code:
0 HEAD 1 SOUR webtrees 2 NAME webtrees 2 VERS 2.1.19 1 DEST DISKETTE 1 DATE 30 MAR 2024 2 TIME 14:24:01 1 GEDC 2 VERS 5.5.1 2 FORM LINEAGE-LINKED 1 CHAR UTF-8 1 FILE tree1.ged 1 SUBM @SUBM@ 0 @X2013@ INDI 1 SEX M 1 NAME AaaaA /ZzzzZ/ 2 TYPE BIRTH 2 GIVN AaaaA 2 SURN ZzzzZ , ZzzzY , ZxxxX , ZxxxW 1 BIRT Y 1 FAMS @X2026@ 0 @X2022@ INDI 1 SEX F 1 NAME bbbbA /YyyyY/ 2 TYPE BIRTH 2 GIVN bbbbA 2 SURN YyyyY 1 NAME BbbbA /ZzzzZ/ 2 TYPE MARRIED 2 GIVN BbbbA 2 SURN ZzzzZ 1 BIRT Y 1 FAMS @X2026@ 0 @X2027@ INDI 1 FAMC @X2026@ 1 SEX M 1 NAME AaaaB /ZzzzY/ 2 TYPE BIRTH 2 GIVN AaaaB 2 SURN ZzzzZ , ZzzzY , ZxxxX , ZxxxW 1 BIRT Y 0 @X2077@ INDI 1 FAMC @X2026@ 1 SEX M 1 NAME AaaaC /ZxxxX/ 2 TYPE BIRTH 2 GIVN AaaaC 2 SURN ZzzzZ , ZzzzY , ZxxxX , ZxxxW 1 BIRT Y 0 @X2099@ INDI 1 FAMC @X2026@ 1 SEX M 1 NAME AaaaD /ZxxxW/ 2 TYPE BIRTH 2 GIVN AaaaD 2 SURN ZzzzZ , ZzzzY , ZxxxX , ZxxxW 1 BIRT Y 0 @X2026@ FAM 1 MARR Y 1 HUSB @X2013@ 1 WIFE @X2022@ 1 CHIL @X2027@ 1 CHIL @X2077@ 1 CHIL @X2099@ 0 TRLR

- Nginx 1.22.1
- PHP 8.2.7
- MariaDB 10.11.6
- Webtrees 2.1.18
- Raspberry Pi 5
Modules : jc-fancy-imagebar, jc-fancy-treeview, vesta, webtrees-faces , webtrees-fan-chart, webtrees-pedigree-chart, webtrees-descendants-chart, hh_extended_family

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2 weeks 5 days ago - 2 weeks 5 days ago #19 by norwegian_sardines
Replied by norwegian_sardines on topic Problem with 2.1.19
Yes, you have made 17 different surname/individual combinations in your GEDCOM!
Code:
0 @X2013@ INDI 1 SEX M 1 NAME AaaaA /ZzzzZ/ 2 TYPE BIRTH 2 GIVN AaaaA 2 SURN ZzzzZ , ZzzzY , ZxxxX , ZxxxW


Counts as 4!  One for each SURN.

If these had been Apple, Black, Carrot, Zebra and not the test ones you have used, they would all be on different pages.  As I said before, the SURN comma list is really for people with multiple surnames, not different variations of the same name.  You are using it wrong!

 

Ken
Last edit: 2 weeks 5 days ago by norwegian_sardines.

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2 weeks 5 days ago - 2 weeks 5 days ago #20 by fa10175
Replied by fa10175 on topic Problem with 2.1.19
yes, maybe, I'm using it wrong for my needs but what's strange is if someone uses it like "the SURN comma list is really for people with multiple surnames" you find as many lines for the same identical person as there are names in SURN separated by commas in the "list of individuals"

I'm working to remove my problem and find a solution that suits me while respecting the information in SURN.

- Nginx 1.22.1
- PHP 8.2.7
- MariaDB 10.11.6
- Webtrees 2.1.18
- Raspberry Pi 5
Modules : jc-fancy-imagebar, jc-fancy-treeview, vesta, webtrees-faces , webtrees-fan-chart, webtrees-pedigree-chart, webtrees-descendants-chart, hh_extended_family
Last edit: 2 weeks 5 days ago by fa10175.

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