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Question individual listed for both: a surname initial and without a surname

  • Franz Frese
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1 year 10 months ago - 1 year 10 months ago #1 by Franz Frese
Person erscheint in der Personenliste sowohl für einen Anfangsbuchstaben des Nachnamens als auch ohne einen Nachnamen.
Das verwirrt total, zumal in der Auswahl "Keine" gar nicht selbsterklärend ist.

Person appears in the list of persons for both a surname initial and without a surname.
This is totally confusing, especially since the selection "None" is not self-explanatory.

Also the headline sorting, which mixes _RUFNAME _MARNM is surprising.
Last edit: 1 year 10 months ago by Franz Frese.

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  • norwegian_sardines
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1 year 10 months ago #2 by norwegian_sardines
I’m not sure what you are asking!

In the surname list, all NAME tags are entered in the list. If a surname starts with a specific letter then that individual is listed under that letter, if a surname is not used for a NAME tag then they are listed under “none”.

Many of my relative never had a surname so they get listed under “none”.

Check to see if this person has an name entry without a surname.

Ken

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1 year 10 months ago #3 by fisharebest
None means "no surname". Maybe the label should be updated?

For example, Icelandic names do not have a surname.

1 NAME Johan Gunnarson

Unknown means that an empty surname is present.

1 NAME Johan //

> Also the headline sorting, which mixes _RUFNAME _MARNM is surprising.

When reporting issues, it is helpful if you are clear about (a) what you see and (b) what you want to see.

If you just say "the order is surprising", I don't know if there is an issue that just affects your data, or if you think the order is incorrect, or maybe your were surprised that the order is correct!!

Greg Roach - greg@subaqua.co.uk - @fisharebest@phpc.social - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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  • Franz Frese
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1 year 10 months ago - 1 year 10 months ago #4 by Franz Frese
a indiviudual that has a surname and _RUFNAME or _MARNM is listed under initial letter and under none.
I wondered, that that is ok.
a indiviudual that has a surname should not be listed under "NONE" or "no surname", because it has a surname!

In every case I would update the label.
Last edit: 1 year 10 months ago by Franz Frese.

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  • Franz Frese
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1 year 10 months ago #5 by Franz Frese

None means "no surname". Maybe the label should be updated?

> Also the headline sorting, which mixes _RUFNAME _MARNM is surprising.

When reporting issues, it is helpful if you are clear about (a) what you see and (b) what you want to see.

If you just say "the order is surprising", I don't know if there is an issue that just affects your data, or if you think the order is incorrect, or maybe your were surprised that the order is correct!!
I would expect that _MARNM is handled as surname but _RUFNAME like givenName.

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1 year 10 months ago #6 by fisharebest
OK - I see this.

_RUFNAME is treated the same as all the other custom name fields:

_AKA
_MARNM
etc.

webtrees therefore expects it to have a complete name. e.g.

2 _MARNM Jenny /Smith/

It doesn't know/understand that _RUFNAME is a special field (like GIVN, SURN, etc.)

Let me look at this...

Greg Roach - greg@subaqua.co.uk - @fisharebest@phpc.social - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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1 year 10 months ago #7 by fisharebest
> Let me look at this...

Fixed.

Unfortunately, this error creates an incorrect search index in the database.

Once you have the new code, you will need to either

edit/save this record
export/import your data to a GEDCOM file.

Greg Roach - greg@subaqua.co.uk - @fisharebest@phpc.social - fisharebest.webtrees.net

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  • bertkoor
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1 year 10 months ago #8 by bertkoor
[code]
1 NAME Richard /Bucket/
2 GIVN Richard
2 SURN Bucket
2 _RUFNAME Dicky
[/code/

I think you get the idea. Many users presumabky have used Nickname (present on webtrees name entry form) for the very same purpose.

stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13

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  • norwegian_sardines
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1 year 10 months ago #9 by norwegian_sardines
If a rufname is the same as a nickname then I would convert it to the NICK tag rather than support it as a new tag!

Wikipedia says:

The Vorname (in English forename) is usually given to a child by the parents shortly after birth. It is common to give a child several Vornamen (forenames), one of them intended for everyday use and known as the Rufname ("appellation name" or "call name"). This Rufname is often underlined on official documents, as it is sometimes the second or third name in the sequence of given names on official record, even though it is the given name in daily use from childhood.


Ken

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1 year 10 months ago #10 by hermann
@bertkoor: this is not correct. You are not free to choose a Rufname. Rufname has to be one of the given names (not the first one). In official documents, like the birth certificate, this name was underlined.

1 NAME Richard Joseph /Bucket/
2 GIVN Richard Joseph
2 SURN Bucket
2 _RUFNAME Joseph

see page 24 in genealogy.net/GEDCOM/GEDCOM551%20GEDCOM-L%20Addendum-R2.pdf

Hermann
Designer of the custom module "Extended Family"

webtrees 2.1.19 (all custom modules installed, PHP 8.2, MariaDB 10.6) @ ahnen.hartenthaler.eu

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1 year 10 months ago - 1 year 10 months ago #11 by bertkoor
It's a cultural thing, so there is no right or wrong.

I'm 99% sure Rufname is German. In Holland we call it "roepnaam". I'm quite sure this is exactly the same concept.

Yes, it can be the second or third of the given names. In standard GEDCOM you mark it with an asterisk and webtrees prints it bold or with underscore, dunno.

What cannot be done in that construction is to record the informal first name. Mine is obviously Bert. My full given names are Albert Jakob. Where do I put the first name "Bert" which I use all the time? Only police officers and border patrols call me Albert J. If my father said "Albert Jakob", I knew I was in deep trouble.

My wife's first name is Mieke, short for Annemieke. It always was. Oddly enough her passport says Joan Christine are her official full given names. Long story. Where / how to record that?

I'm of the opinion Rufname or Nickname are intended (or at least suitable) for that purpose.

So I am a supporter of the webtrees v1.7 name construct: Albert Jakob "Bert" Koorengevel.

Now we're talking about given names, the specs say to separate them with a comma. Are we free to disobey? Seems so weird with commas. Or is that meant for variations found i
the wild, for instance Jan, Johan, Johannes?

stamboom.BertKoor.nl runs on webtrees v1.7.13
Last edit: 1 year 10 months ago by bertkoor.

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  • norwegian_sardines
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1 year 10 months ago #12 by norwegian_sardines
Names and all various things different cultures and families call name parts are hard to nail down and even worse shoehorn into the GEDCOM specification.

The best thing to do is learn what webtrees does to make names displayable and enter the name the best way you can. Using custom tags may not be the best way!

YES, the nickname or rufname if entered in the NAME tag followed by an asterisk will underline that name.

1 NAME <given> <nick/ruf>* /<surname>/

Works!

Ken

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1 year 10 months ago #13 by Sir Peter
My five cents... in German "Rufname" is different from "Spitzname" (engl. nick name).
  • The official "Rufname" is exactly one of multiple official given names - not necessarily the first one - and usually underlined or indicated otherwise in official documents.
  • The "Spitzname" (engl. nick name) is an unofficial name often used by family members, close friends or lovers and not necessarily a derivative of a given name.

Peter

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  • Franz Frese
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1 year 10 months ago #14 by Franz Frese

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1 year 10 months ago - 1 year 10 months ago #15 by hermann
The Asterisks work perfectly in webtrees but this is not GEDCOM!

To use a list in GIVN or SURN is another interesting topic.
It seems that GEDCOM 7 prefers multiple sub-tags for NAME.

Today I use
Code:
1 NAME Maria Helena /Pallová/ 2 GIVN Maria Helena 2 SURN Palla, Pallová

Maybe this will become
Code:
1 NAME Maria Helena /Pallová/ 2 GIVN Maria 2 GIVN Helena 2 SURN Palla 2 SURN Pallová

Hermann
Designer of the custom module "Extended Family"

webtrees 2.1.19 (all custom modules installed, PHP 8.2, MariaDB 10.6) @ ahnen.hartenthaler.eu
Last edit: 1 year 10 months ago by hermann.

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  • Franz Frese
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1 year 10 months ago #16 by Franz Frese

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1 year 10 months ago - 1 year 10 months ago #17 by norwegian_sardines
Herman,

GEDCOM v5.5.1 does not allow multiple SURN or GIVN tag under a single NAME tag. These constructs are invalid.

webtrees is not supporting GEDCOM v7.0.x at this time!

Ken
Last edit: 1 year 10 months ago by norwegian_sardines.

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1 year 10 months ago #18 by norwegian_sardines
All,

Since the Dutch, German, and probably other Germanic or Northern European customs all have a similar construct, using the term roepnaam or rufname (or some other language specific term) as custom tags is not getting us anywhere for when we have to normalize the database to create reports using the tags found in GEDCOM.

I would propose that a different solution must be found that normalizes this construct!

Ken

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1 year 10 months ago - 1 year 10 months ago #19 by norwegian_sardines
Herman said:

The Asterisks work perfectly in webtrees but this is not GEDCOM!

But it is/was common in the Genealogist circles. I’ve been associated with Norwegian and American genealogy for 40 years and most of the old documents placed as asterisk next to the “call name” or know as by the family name because that was easy to type with a typewriter rather than backspacing to underline it. Just saying!



Sorry for the multiple entries.

Ken
Last edit: 1 year 10 months ago by norwegian_sardines.

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1 year 10 months ago - 1 year 5 months ago #20 by gudjonsi

None means "no surname". Maybe the label should be updated?

For example, Icelandic names do not have a surname.

1 NAME Johan Gunnarson

Unknown means that an empty surname is present.

1 NAME Johan //

> Also the headline sorting, which mixes _RUFNAME _MARNM is surprising.

When reporting issues, it is helpful if you are clear about (a) what you see and (b) what you want to see.

If you just say "the order is surprising", I don't know if there is an issue that just affects your data, or if you think the order is incorrect, or maybe your were surprised that the order is correct!!

In an effort to explain the Icelandic name system a little better I would like to point out that Icelandic names are composed of both a first names (given names) and a patronymic and/or occasionally matronymic “relation” names (or last names) but generally not a family linage surnames. So the Icelandic name system has a last name for each person but it is generally not a family surname (though they do occur). A person's full name is his or her first name or first names, middle name, if applicable, and last name. Ref. (1)

Icelanders always go by their given names (or first names) and not their last names (which may be what Greg is referring to). In genealogy we would use both the given name GIVN and the surname SURN in GEDCOM to distinguish the two separate part of the Icelandic naming system, i.e. the first names (given names and if applicable middle name) and the last names (or relation names) of a person.

Example:

0 @X2@ INDI
1 NAME Jón Sveinn /Haraldsson Briem/
2 GIVN Jón Sveinn
2 SURN Haraldsson Briem
1 SEX M
1 BIRT
2 DATE 30 OCT 1874
1 DEAT
2 DATE 09 DEC 1937

With Greg’s suggestion the NAME with two surnames would be (if correctly understood):
1 NAME Jón Sveinn /Haraldsson/ /Briem/

In the above example we have two first names and two last names which indicates that Jón Sveinn father’s name is Haraldur (genitive Haralds+son=Haraldsson) and possibly his mother's family name is Briem so he uses relation name to both parents.

The patronymic or matronymic “relation” names are the persons fathers or mothers given names in the genitive, followed by -son ("son") for sons or -dóttir ("daughter") for daughters. Ref. (1)

Icelandic names are an old and common cultural heritage shared by other Nordic countries such as Norway, Denmark, the Faroe Islands and Sweden except for Finland. Unlike the other Nordics countries, Icelanders continued to use their traditional name system. The Icelandic Sagas detail genealogy using patronymic to fathers given names as person's last name. The Icelandic name system is thus NOT based on family names (although some people do have family names and might use both systems). Icelanders who lived or were educated abroad could adopt a family name which they used abroad but after 1925 it was no longer authorised according to law. Direct descendants can however use the previously authorised family names. Ref. (1) and (2)

This may change since Iceland has now an ever increasing population of immigrants from other countries with different name tradition.

Ref. (1) - Nr. 45 17. maí 1996 - Icelandic law on personal names.
Ref. (2) - Icelandic name - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Last edit: 1 year 5 months ago by gudjonsi.

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